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| Hey Pam | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Sat Nov 1st, 2008 06:09 pm |
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1st Post |
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TimK Member
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Isn't it about time for you to throw out another one of your great topics to ponder. Put down the book, ignore the fam for awhile, and give us something to think about!
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| Posted: Sat Nov 1st, 2008 08:17 pm |
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2nd Post |
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pamc153PA Member
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Geez, Tim, nothing like pressure! Let me think a little. . . Pam
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| Posted: Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 01:17 pm |
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3rd Post |
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gettysburgerrn Member 
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Is that a ghost or do I hear the music from "Jeopardy" in the background.... ken
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28th, 2008 05:56 pm |
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4th Post |
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TimK Member
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Hey Pam, If we were to meet at a social function, and we started a conversation about the 153rd Pennsylvania, from your studies, what would be the one (or few) thing(s) you would want me to know about this unit?
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 12:53 am |
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5th Post |
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pamc153PA Member
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Tim, Well, I would resist the urge to defend the 153rd's actions at both Chancellorsville and Gettysburg, even though I firmly believe and know they got a bum rap at both, thanks to things totally out of their control, such as upper levels of command, and the fact that they were the "Dumb Dutch." I would most definitely tell you what I know about my ancestor, Pvt. John H. Rothrock, because he was a prime example of many of the men who fought in the unit: young (18 years), from a PA Dutch family of laborers, idealistic with the hopes of providing for his family and serving his country. I know where he lived (Saucon Valley, PA), and know where he died (Mulberry Street Hospital in Harrisburg), and where he is buried. I can pretty well imagine what his PA Dutch accent sounded like, and even though I haven't yet located a picture of him, I can pretty easily imagine how he looked. So I would have chosen to focus on the individual rather than simply the unit, because the unit was the sum of individuals like my ancestor. But I think the important thing about the past--of the 153rd PA, or any past age--is what we learn and take away from it, to apply in the present. One theme about the 153rd that is so unfortunately easy to apply to today is that you cannot truly know a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins (to borrow a phrase). In fact, I use my own ancestors as examples for my students when we talk about both The Miracle Worker and The Diary of Anne Frank in class, as an example of what making sweeping judgements can end up doing to those receiving judgement--and those making the judgements. Kind of heavy. I'd probably go lighter on that, at least at first! Pam
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 01:57 am |
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6th Post |
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PvtClewell Member 
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Tim, Will you also accept a reply from another 153rder? The 153rd was a nine-month outfit that actually served 10 months (six of its companies were mustered in on Oct. 7, 1862, and the regiment was mustered out on July 24, 1863). The boys fought in two major battles — Chancellorsville and Gettysburg. At Chancellorsville, the regiment took the brunt of Jackson's flank attack, yet still managed to get off two or three rounds — no mean feat — before they were forced to give ground while other units around them broke, some without firing a shot. At Gettysburg, they took the full brunt of Gordon's attack on Blocher's Knoll, — some were skirmishers in a forward position at Rock Creek — and when forced to fall back they retreated in relatively good order to take up a position on East Cemetery Hill. The next evening, they were perhaps at their best in the awful fight against Hays's brigade, which saw some bitter hand-to-hand combat as the battle continued into the darkness. Some of the men of the 153rd thought — mistakingly — that they were to be mustered out prior to Gettysburg, but still remained to meet and repulse the invader on their native soil. Their enlistments were close to running out in any event. The 153rd suffered 267 casualties at Gettysburg, out of about 550 present, (47 per cent) which Sears points out was a stiff price to pay for a ninth-month outfit. Pvt. William Clewell was a musician (tuba) in Co. A. He survived the war.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 03:34 am |
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7th Post |
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TimK Member
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Thank you for the replies! I'm still very curious and interested. Why would one reply seem to be so full of pride and a sense of honor, while another seems to feel as though the 153rd was thought of as "Dumb Dutch", and if I am interpreting this correctly, scapegoats? Those are some staggering casualty numbers. Did Private Rothrock succumb due to battle related injuries?
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 03:35 am |
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8th Post |
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TimK Member
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By the way, I come from a long line of drunken, wife beaters (I'm mostly Irish), so I understand sweeping judgments.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 03:43 am |
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9th Post |
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javal1 Grumpy Geezer 
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My fellow 153rd folks are far kinder, and much less skeptical than myself. The 153rd were used as cannon-fodder, plain and simple. They were hated by their "leader" the shallow bigoted Barlow who in my book ranks with Sickles for moral ineptitude. Tim, the Dutch were hated by fellow soldiers, commanders and others. As a people in general they didn't believe in war to solve regional disputes and were rather outspoken on the subject. Should you ever have spare reading time let me know. I have a great book on the Dutch and Germans in the Civil War I'd be glad to loan you. Charles Issemoyer and William Issemoyer of the 153rd, ny g-g grandfather and uncle both survived the war and both served time as POW's.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 03:03 pm |
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10th Post |
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pamc153PA Member
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Totally agree with Joe (of course, Joe, you already know that!). Mine was alittle wordier and more PC that his, but he's absolutely right. Who do you use as a scapegoat when you need to place blame somewhere (but not on yourself)? The ones who are least able/likely to fight back, because of their beliefs and the fact that they "spoke funny," i.e. were often not fluent in English (or chose to keep their own language alive). Barlow must be the most despicable in the group who placed blame on the Germans in the Union Army, but there were of course others. Pvt. John H. Rothrock was wounded on Blocher's Knoll on July1, and died at Mulberry Street Hospital on July 27, with his mother by his side. He was 18. Pam
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 04:46 pm |
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11th Post |
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TimK Member
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Please don't interpret any of my questions as a sign of disrespect. I assure they are not. I am interested in this discussion and the personal histories. Were the 153rd disliked by the boys from New York that were in the same brigade? The bio of Barlow on this site- http://www.civilwarinteractive.com/Biographies/BiosFrancisChanningBarlow.htm paints a fairly decent picture of this man. Could you tell me a little bit more why you would call him shallow, bigoted, and morally inept. Those are some strong words. Again, with respect to you and your ancestors, Tim
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 10:51 pm |
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12th Post |
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ole Member 
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It ever was, and may always will be, that if you look funny or talk funny, you have a ways to go for assimiliation. Assimilation will come. Eventually. But there will be a time, in there somewhere, you have to pay your dues. And some of those dues will be being considered less than you are. "Give me your tired, your poor; your wretched refuse..." sounds noble in its poesy, but it never was an actual fact. Each wave had its problems. It was not a situation wherein "if you're white, you're cool." It was "talking funny." Don't entirely agree with Javal that the Germans were a peaceful people, eschewing war as no solution to political problems. Many of them who migrated to the new shores were escaping the wars back there in the old country. Many of them came because they backed the wrong side. Perhaps he was talking about the religious ones -- the Mennonites and Amish (the Pennsylvania Dutch) among many others who were looking for a peaceful clime in which to be let alone. I find that those who participated in the war had no such qualms. For the most part, they were volunteers. So much for their pacifism. Although many got involved in pacifistic enterprises, your basic German has never turned away from a fight. If there was a fight going on, the German would pick one side or another and join in. Cheerfully. By the way, I am not German. Ole
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30th, 2008 12:18 am |
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13th Post |
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PvtClewell Member
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Tim, The men of the 153rd, for the most part, apparently had little regard for Francis Barlow. The following excerpt comes from the the regimental "History of the 153rd Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry" and was written by William Simmers (the sergeant-major of Co. K) in 1863. Barlow, a strict disciplinarian, had just taken command of the 1st Division of the 11th Corps after Chancellorsville: "Billy Barlow continued the scourge of the division; until a chance bullet at Gettysburg lowered the petty tyrant from his exalted position, and freed the division of his presence. The short reign of this individual forms an epoch in our history, which will never be forgotten by those who had the misfortune to serve under him." That's pretty powerful stuff written by someone who was there. Take it for what it's worth. While I agree with Javal that the 153rd was basically misused, and Barlow was clearly an elitist who detested the Germans who served under him, I think an argument can be made that anybody wearing a uniform is cannon fodder. The 11th Corps was supposedly placed in an out of the way location at Chancellorsvile where nobody expected an attack to be made. At Gettysburg, Barlow took the 1st Division to the plains north of Gettysburg and the 1st Brigade to the 'high' ground at Blocher's Knoll, an untenable position that was easily flanked by Gordon. I suspect the New Yorkers of the 1st Brigade, under the command of Leopold von Gilsa, were also mostly of German descent, although I can't say for sure. The 41st New York was commanded by Col. Detleo von Einsiedel; the 54th New York was commanded by Maj. Stephen Kovacs, and after he was captured, by Lt. Ernst Both; and the 68th New York was commanded by Col. Gotthilf Bourry. I suspect they got long just fine with the Pennsylvanians. I suspect they spoke the same language. There once was a time when I felt embarrassed to have a relative in the 11th Corps — so-called Howard's Cowards — but after deeper study, no more. The men of the 153rd PA were dedicated volunteers, circumstances put them in impossible positions, and the fact that they fought hard at Gettysburg with their enlistments running out — and the losses they subsequently incurred — speaks more to their courage than do the excuses of their leaders and the accusations of their xenophobic peers. Excuse me. I'm going to have a beer with a brat and sauerkraut now.  Last edited on Mon Dec 1st, 2008 03:04 am by PvtClewell |
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30th, 2008 04:30 pm |
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14th Post |
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TimK Member
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Thank you for sharing. That is some powerful stuff. I get fascinated by the personal stories. I wish I could buy you that beer and brat and talk a little more about this. Many times when people phone me to order a map, they will want to talk about about why they want a particular map. Many times it is because an ancestor was at Shiloh, Chickamauga, etc., and they will want to talk about what information they have. Sometimes, I don't have as much time to talk as I would hope, but I am always fascinated by the stories, and the extreme pride that people have when speaking of their ancestors. This is not a regional thing - pride is universal and is shown whether the relative fought for the Union or the Confederacy. Probably a "Hey Pam" thread is not the right place, but I would love to read about other ancestors. The subject, much like the historic photography, captivates me and mesmerizes. Thank you again for sharing. Tim
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30th, 2008 05:37 pm |
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15th Post |
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javal1 Grumpy Geezer
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Moving this thread to general Civil War category. Ole, you are right regarding the Ditch/Germans. I should have been more careful in phrasing. What I meant was that the vast majority of them who arrived in the wave of immigration from the 30's to the 60's were pacifistic in nature, often emmigrating because of the wars at home. But still, they felt they owed it to their new homeland to serve, despite their objections.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 05:37 pm |
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16th Post |
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annienicole25 Member
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hello! we were wondering if anyone knows the author of this site? we need to know for our us history project, and we need the author and the author's creditionals...please help if you know/are the author of this site, we really like it!
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 05:38 pm |
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17th Post |
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annienicole25 Member
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DOES ANYONE KNOW THE AUTHOR OF THIS SITE??????? PLEASE HELP!!!
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24th, 2009 03:43 am |
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18th Post |
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CleburneFan Member 
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Annie, what site? Civil War Interactive? There is no "author" per se. The distinguished founder and owner is Javal- sometimes called the Grumpy Geezer. Check the home page of CWI for more detailed information.
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