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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > General Civil War Talk > Slaves as Southern soldiers? |
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| Slaves as Southern soldiers? | Rating:
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 04:43 pm |
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101st Post |
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borderuffian Member
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"Soldier" Anyone on the muster roll was counted as a soldier- privates, musicians, teamsters, etc. I've even seen specific cases where officers refer to black musicians as soldiers.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 04:57 pm |
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102nd Post |
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HankC Member
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Albert Sailhorst wrote: Since the winners write the history, it is my opinion that the subject of black confederates has been "deleted", to some extent, from fact. After all, why would the winners, who fought for emancipation (remember the Proclimation?), admit that blacks fought for the confederacy? To admit this would de-value the cost in Federal lives lost during the conflict. ridiculous... HankC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 05:06 pm |
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103rd Post |
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19bama46 Member
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Some players have changed, some are the same, some things never change ...or die... this thread is one of them y'all can pull each other's arms off and use them to beat each other over the head, but ya ain't gonna change anybody's mind on this one... I know very well... Ed
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 05:22 pm |
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104th Post |
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Old Blu Member
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19bama46 wrote: Some players have changed, some are the same, some things never change ...or die... this thread is one of themI agree. All this ends up being is a low level peeing contest.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 05:47 pm |
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105th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member
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HankC, What's "ridiculous" about the opinion I expressed? Just curious.....
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 05:57 pm |
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106th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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Under normal circumstances my reply would be in red, but for some reason I cannot do so from this PC so my replies are in Bold, if there is confusion my apologies. This website, http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm offers the following: Albert; thank you very much for the link, it is appreciated. The above site originated from another and has been heavily cut and pasted around the web over the years; large amounts of the original info is distorted or outright fabricated. 1. The "Richmond Howitzers" were partially manned by black militiamen. They saw action at 1st Manassas (or 1st Battle of Bull Run) where they operated battery no. 2. In addition two black “regiments”, one free and one slave, participated in the battle on behalf of the South. “Many colored people were killed in the action”, recorded John Parker, a former slave. Albert; when pressed no one is able to provide the unit designation of the two black Regiments. The realit is that there were some Black men in the ranks of the CS at Bull Run; about a Company worth of Creoles from New Orleans. I've seen no history of the Richmond howitzers that corroborates that a battery or a section was crewed by black men. There were ample servents in the Richmond Howitzers though.
8. 14. On April 4, 1865 (Amelia County, VA), a Confederate supply train was exclusively manned and guarded by black Infantry. When attacked by Federal Cavalry, they stood their ground and fought off the charge, but on the second charge they were overwhelmed. These soldiers are believed to be from "Major Turner's" Confederate command. Verifiable and quite true, the same men as above in #7... counted twice by the original author. Blacks did serve in the Confederate armed forces as soldiers and sailors. However, not to the extent that they comprised a great percentage of the army's numbers. I agree wholeheartdedly and I've said so many times. My own research points to somewhere in the neighborhood of 1300-1400. Other legitimate research has come up w/ numbers of 13,000 and I can agree w/ the methodology that came up w/ such a number; though I believe it very high. Since the winners write the history, it is my opinion that the subject of black confederates has been "deleted", to some extent, from fact. After all, why would the winners, who fought for emancipation (remember the Proclimation?), admit that blacks fought for the confederacy? To admit this would de-value the cost in Federal lives lost during the conflict. I don't quite see it so, the history of the USCT was heavily downplayed after the war and they have never really been given their due by either side of the scrap. The best respect they were given was by the men who fought beside them and those who commanded them. IMO the Lost Cause movement had to do everything possible to push the idea that slavery had anything to do w/ the war to the rear... and the myth of the Black Confederate does that.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 06:10 pm |
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107th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member
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Johann, Thanks for looking into the website I quoted. That was very insightful! Eventhough that particular website may not have given the entire story, I felt that it was, in part, representative as an example of services in general rendered by black people to the Confederacy. In my opinion, your number of 1,300 to 1,400 is probably pretty accurate. Also, in my opinion, a true number may never be known as a result of poor or inadeqate records keeping, etc..... It would be nice to see some documentation (diary entry, letter) from a Reb that definitively states that a slave/freed slave was actually given rank (Private) and served as such in a continual basis. I know blacks fought, to an extent, for the South, but a first person account would make interesting reading!
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 06:15 pm |
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108th Post |
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Old Blu Member
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I don't quite see it so, the history of the USCT was heavily downplayed after the war and they have never really been given their due by either side of the scrap. I agree. But this hidden agenda would have been worse having blacks fight for the South. As time goes on, there will be found more Black Confederate Soldiers. The best respect they were given was by the men who fought beside them and those who commanded them. That was the same with Southern soldiers and their Black compatriots IMO the Lost Cause movement had to do everything possible to push the idea that slavery had anything to do w/ the war to the rear... Which was pushed there by the yankee winners to save face about slaves fight for the South and reminds the South everyday about slavery. and the myth of the Black Confederate does that. You can't have it both ways. First you say there were 1200 at best and now you say it is a myth.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 07:02 pm |
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109th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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"The three mentioned were all established around 1900. I know of only one monument to the USCT established during that period. The rest are of modern vintage." This statement is correct. The only monument until recent years to a USCT unit was the one for the 54th Massachusetts. You will have to define "recent" years as there are several mentioned earlier in the thread dating from the early half of the 20th century. As to individual gravestones this is standard practice. Confederate Veteran organizations supplied or helped to pay for many monuments and markers for black Confederates. Would you be kind enough to give the numbers of gravestones provided to Black Confederate soldiers by any state or CS veterans organization? Any veteran of the US military is entitled to a stone and the GAR was very good about marking graves. There are numbers of USCT graves that are marked in several National Cemetaries. I can count on one hand stones I have seen for black men in the south dating from the period in question and I have never seen a monument to the black confederate and am only aware of one at all. 1890 Census The census is very clear. The number of survivors at that time indicate there were at least 7,000 black Confederate soldiers. You'll have to provide a link, I've looked the the various census reports several times over the years, seen no evidence of such a listing or catagory. But I also wasn't looking for "Black Confederate Soldiers." Historians like Krick and McPherson would be quite suprised I think. It was certainly custom and regulations that said 'whites only' but there was never any law enacted that prevented blacks from serving. Are you serious? Are you forgetting the fits in the CS congress over arming black men in April of 65? Number of USCT The USCT was never 20% of the Federal army. At its height -near the end of the war- it was only about 10%. By the end of the 1 in 6 soldiers wearing the Blue around Petersburg were black men. The numbers were similar elsewhere. Blacks that "Escaped" to Enemy Lines Escaped is correct; they weren't sent. The largest number estimated by historians (McPherson?) is about five hundred thousand (unfortunately a great many of these people died). I don't know of anyone who has put forth the number one million. I've seen it a score of times in the last several months, three locations on the eastern seaboard alone will total up w/ numbers of well over 100,000. Find every US post or bridgehead along the eastern seaboard and I expect you'll get a rather large number; add the USCT men to the total and I can easily see it reaching a million people. So 1 million is not unreasonable. As to how many died and the implication the percentages of known death to disease were on par w/ the US military of the time and considerably less than that of the US military during the Mexican War. See: History of the Freedman's Bureau by Bentley A Documentary History of Emancipation, 1861-1867. SEries 2: the Black Military Experiance by Berlin The Confederate Negro: Virginia's Craftsman and Military Laborers, 1861-1865 by Brewer Blockaders, Refugees & Contrabands by Buker The Gray and the Black by Durden South Carolina's African American Confederate Pensioners... I'm not certain of the author. Black Confederate and Afro Yankees in Civil War Virginia by Jordan Like Men of War by Trudeau.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 07:06 pm |
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110th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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Old Blu; 12-1300 or even 13,000 Black men bearing arms is not a myth. Grossly exaggerated and patently ridiculous numbers all the way up to 250,000 is a myth. "1200 at best" are your words not mine. Read what Ranger Dabney had to sy in one of my earlier posts in this thread, he is spot on about the Black Confederate question. Last edited on Wed Mar 18th, 2009 06:30 am by Johan Steele |
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 07:08 pm |
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111th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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"Soldier" Anyone on the muster roll was counted as a soldier- privates, musicians, teamsters, etc. I've even seen specific cases where officers refer to black musicians as soldiers. Can you give us examples? The CS system of counting troops was inconsistant and erratic and can be VERY confusing.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 07:20 pm |
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112th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member
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An intersting PDF file from the North Carolina Dept. of Cultural Resources, dated Feb. 2002 (http://www.ncdcr.gov/news/2003/opa_2-26-03.pdf): "Among the records in North Carolina’s archives that document African Americans’ service are newspaper enrollment notices that give times for free Negroes to enlist in the Confederate Army, correspondence, Confederate pension applications, and depositions. Some military records note that slaves helped to construct forts or do other work at military facilities. Other documentation can be found in the “North Carolina Troops, 1861-1865,” a 15-volume set of reference books that chronicles Confederate servicemen and includes the names of black soldiers." "In some instances, officials even denied the existence of black Confederate soldiers. For instance, Sarah Venable, widow of John W. Venable, applied for a widow’s pension. Venable is listed in the “North Carolina Troops, 1861-1865,” as a member of Company H, 21 st Regiment N.C. Troops. The roster shows that he was “Negro, enlisted June 5, 1861. No further records.” However, John Sawyer, a white Confederate veteran who served with Venable, submitted a deposition as part of Sarah’s application stating that he knew John Venable, and that Venable had “made a good soldier.” Yet the claim was disallowed with the notation, “No law for this.”I think it is interesting!! I'd like to find/see similar documentation at the State level!!
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 07:27 pm |
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113th Post |
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HankC Member
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19bama46 wrote: Some players have changed, some are the same, some things never change ...or die... this thread is one of them agreed... The best of these opinions typically peak with the Steiner quote and some definition of the word 'soldier'. Lacking any real evidence, and confronted with real facts, they scuttle for other forums and start over. HankC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 07:30 pm |
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114th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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Albert; over the years I've found some from Arkansas, Texas and Alabama as well that detail black men fighting but they are very few and far between. I believe the records of Appomatox were parused by a historian and he found 27 Black men in the ranks. It is important to take a hard look at pension records as applicants had to be vouched for by other veterans and their comments can be very interesting, whether they have anything to do w/ the black CS subject or not. Some are an outright hoot, others quite touching.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 07:31 pm |
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115th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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HankC... very true, very true.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 07:56 pm |
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116th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member
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The website for the SCV Camp 469 of Rome, GA (http://scvcamp469-nbf.com/hollandservice.htm) presents the following in relation to a black Confederate's grave: "Sunday, September 08, 2002 The time came for Creed Holland to get the recognition he was due. He was a black slave, but also a Confederate soldier. And for such, Creed Holland was honored Saturday morning at a graveside ceremony in a small cemetery behind Riverview Baptist Church in Rocky Mount. The Jubal Early chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy dedicated Confederate memorial markers to Creed Holland and two other black Confederate soldiers, also named Holland, from Franklin County. Hazel Holland Davis, a member of the Jubal Early chapter and great-granddaughter of a Confederate soldier, organized the service as part of a chapterwide project to identify Confederate soldiers' graves in Franklin County. The three Holland soldiers, of no known relation to each other or to Davis, worked as slaves on Thomas J. Holland's 732-acre farm in Glade Hill. Thomas Holland was Davis' great-great-grandfather. The service was a rare memorial that honored the little-known Confederate soldiers: enslaved black soldiers. About 45 Confederate re-enactors and members of the United Daughters of the Confederacy and Sons of Confederate Veterans performed the ceremony, which included poems, speeches, prayers and customary military funeral rites such as cannonball volleys and rifle shots." The article goes on in other detail (but I felt was too long to continue quoting here). Without name-caling and dismissing opinions as "ridiculous", I think this is a very interesting, educational topic! It has certainly caused me to do some research and I am learning from it! Thanks!!
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 08:51 pm |
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117th Post |
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barrydancer Member
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Johan Steele wrote: Wall Street Journal, May 8, 1997 7 pages in, I think this posting bears repeating. Some excellent, professional, and well-respected historians have looked into this topic, and as Ed Bearss said, "it's B.S." I also bristle a bit at the idea that, at least as far as the Civil War goes, the winners write the history. I don't think history has ever been kinder to a similar group/movement than it has been to the Confederacy. Do some research into Lost Cause mythology and you'll easily see how prevelant its tenets still are in Civil War historiography. Eric Foner and David Blight are two historians who I would recommend if anyone is interested in studying the ways in which the service of black men in the Union army, and the issue of slavery, were pushed to the rear in the 1890's in the name of "reconciliation" between North and South.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 10:30 pm |
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118th Post |
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borderuffian Member
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barrydancer wrote: Johan Steele wrote:Wall Street Journal, May 8, 1997 Now that's funny. In one sentence- no one has "ever been kinder to a similar group/movement than it has been to the Confederacy." And in the next they're called the "Lost Cause mythology."
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 10:36 pm |
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119th Post |
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borderuffian Member
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Number of the USCT Apparently this is not going to go away until I give the numbers. During the latter part of 1864 and into 1865 the Federal army averaged about 1 million men total. On specific dates: Jun 30, 1864- 1,001,782 Dec 31, 1864- 936,996 Apr 30, 1865- 1,052,038 The USCT numbered about 100,000 in October 1864. The largest number in service at any one time was 123,156. But that was on July 15, 1865 after the war was over. At the end of the war the USCT was about 10% of the Federal army. Last edited on Tue Mar 17th, 2009 11:06 pm by borderuffian |
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 11:25 pm |
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120th Post |
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borderuffian Member
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barrydancer wrote: Johan Steele wrote:Wall Street Journal, May 8, 1997 I don't know about Bearss or Krick but I do know that McPherson, Blight and Foner have an extremely biased view of history. They are leftist academics and leftists see history as a tool to advance their political agenda.
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