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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > General Civil War Talk > Black Confederates |
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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > General Civil War Talk > Black Confederates |
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| Black Confederates | Rating: 
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 03:54 pm |
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21st Post |
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borderuffian Member 
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swampfox16 wrote: There certainly were not hundreds and hundreds of thousands of black confederates, but reason would have it that there were a great deal of them. Conservative and liberal estimates of their number are likely biased. According to an SCV Camp site ".. A Union sanitary commission officer saw 3,000 black armed combatants in the Confederate Army moving through Fredricksburg, Va., in 1862." The Steiner account of 3,000 black Confederates in an army of 64,000 is fairly consistent with other Confederate records. In Hollandsworth's study of Confederate pensioners of Mississippi he found 1,739 blacks out of a total of 36,000. In the Official Records there is a report of a Confederate division that had 483 servants and attendants among a total of 11,237 men. Comparing the three- Steiner..................3,000 / 64,000.....4.7% MS Pensions..........1,739 / 36,000.....4.8% OR report.................483 / 11,237.....4.3% These numbers give support to the claim of 50,000 (or more) blacks in the Confederate army. Last edited on Mon Jan 18th, 2010 03:58 pm by borderuffian |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 04:39 pm |
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22nd Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352 
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I don't believe Steiner was commenting on the whole ANV, but Jackson's troops. 483 servants & attendents... are these soldiers? I don't believe the CS considered them so. If so the aggregate combat strength of the CS should be increased.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 07:44 pm |
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23rd Post |
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HankC Member 
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The Virginia pension application asks the applicant the name of their master, in what unit he served and the nature of the applicant's 'work'. That seems to imply that the pensioner was *not* a soldier. HankC
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22nd, 2010 02:20 pm |
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24th Post |
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borderuffian Member
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borderuffian wrote: Black involvement in the Confederate army was varied: Here's an account of a free black who was a servant in the Confederate army- "Enlisting in the Palo Alto Confederates from his home in Palo Alto, Mississippi, at age 17, Andrew Martin Chandler was mustered into Company F. of Blythe's 44th Mississippi Infantry. He participated in several campaigns with 19 year old Silas Chandler, his childhood playmate, friend and former slave of his parents. Andrew was captured ar Siloh and was held prisoner in Ohio. While there Silas made repeated trips home to Mississippi to bring Andrew needed goods. Andrew was later exchanged, he and Silas went home and returned to their old unit. Andrew was later wounded at The Battle of Chickamauga. After this battle, while in a battlefield hospital, surgeons prepared to amputate Andrew's leg. Silas used a gold coin, (given to him by Andrew's mother to take care of him if anything happened), to bribe the surgeons staff to release Andrew. Silas carried Andrew on his back several miles and loaded him on a railroad boxcar headed for Atlanta. In Atlanta, Silas took him to a regular hospital where his leg and probably his life was saved by Silas's attention. Silas stayed with Andrew and took daily care of him until his family could join him. The following is from a 1950 typed transcript of handwritten notes made from an interview with Andrew Martin Chandler in 1912: Andrew told the story of Silas Chandler that served with him in the Confederate Army. He said that Silas was a former slave that was owned by his parents and given his freedom papers just before the War. Even though Silas was granted his freedom, he insisted on going to war with Andrew his childhood friend. Silas told Andrew he was older and could watch out and protect him if needed. Even though Silas was still considered Andrew's servant by the other men and blacks in the unit, Andrew said that Silas displayed just as much hatred for the Yankees and fought as hard as any other soldier in the unit...." http://trees.ancestry.com/pt/ViewStory.aspx?tid=11020007&pid=-153551424&oid=5aea5023-018e-4b86-8002-7788050d662f&pg=32768
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22nd, 2010 09:00 pm |
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25th Post |
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19bama46 Member
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borderuffian wrote: borderuffian wrote:Black involvement in the Confederate army was varied: Just last week, I saw on Antiques Roadshow, the original duguerrotype of the famous Chandler Boys that we have probably all seen. The owner is the direct descendent (gg grandson) of Andrew and has reconnected with the gg grandson of Silas and they are now friends...really neat segement..
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 04:16 pm |
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26th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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Why is Silas Chandler the only account of a Black CS soldier that I ever see, aren't there supposed to be more out there?
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 05:58 pm |
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27th Post |
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19bama46 Member
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Johan Steele wrote: Why is Silas Chandler the only account of a Black CS soldier that I ever see, aren't there supposed to be more out there? Probably because he is the most well known.. the photo (dugueryotyoe SP?) is seen everywhere... By the way, I am coming to accept your conclusions as to the number of black confederates, even tho I still have some issues with Confederate black non combatants not being considered soldiers... but that is a semantics issue
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 09:08 pm |
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28th Post |
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HankC Member
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There is more to the oath of enlistment, drill, roll call, drawing supplies, giving and following orders and fighting then semantics... HankC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 09:23 pm |
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29th Post |
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borderuffian Member
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Isn't it time someone brought out the "Krick Study".... Last edited on Tue Jan 26th, 2010 09:31 pm by borderuffian |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 09:29 pm |
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30th Post |
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borderuffian Member
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Wonder what version it will be? A. "Robert K. Krick’s unpublished article on the number of black Confederates based on an analysis of 100,000 service records. According to Krick only 20 – 30 non-white soldiers could be discerned." http://cwmemory.com/2007/07/07/how-many-black-confederates-were-there/ B. "...Robert Krick, author of 10 books on the Confederacy, says he has studied the records of 150,000 Southern soldiers and found fewer than a dozen were black..." http://www.acwrtq.com/1_Files/article-black-confederates-and-history-B.html C. "...Krick studied the service records for about 200,000 confederate soldiers and found, in his words, 'six, or twelve at the very most' black confederate soldiers..." http://historymatters.gmu.edu/talkinghistory/CivilWarForum/CivilWarForum-2003-March.html Version Black Confederates Service Records A 20-30 100,000 B <12 150,000 C 6-12 200,000 Wow, one number gets smaller while the other gets larger...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 02:04 am |
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31st Post |
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Mark Member
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This may be a dumb question, but if there were statistically significant numbers of black soldiers fighting for the Confederacy, why was there such controversy over Gen. Cleburne's proposal to arm them? Mark
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 03:52 pm |
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32nd Post |
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ole Member 
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There are no dumb questions, Mark. Hang around the CW boards for a while and "black confederates" will show up. Again and again and again. My take: Of nearly a million military-able slaves and freedmen (SWAG) in 1860, there just would have to be some musket-toting black soldiers. I take that as a given. And I'm one of those who doesn't count civilian workers, slave or free, as a soldier. I go along with the idea of enlisted, ranked, paid, et alii, are requirements. Officially, there were none. Practically speaking, were you a regimental commander, you'd welcome a recruit of any color. Can he march, follow orders and shoot? OK. You're a soldier. But there are dumb answers. Ole
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 05:49 pm |
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33rd Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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BorderRuffian your numbers of Black Confederate soldiers are 5000 IIRC, are they the same here as CWT or factasy? Just curious.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 05:50 pm |
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34th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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As for Krick, the answer may simply be the difference between soldiers and not. When doing research it is possible to come across information that excludes as well as adds. Krick has studied far more actual records than you or I. Last edited on Wed Jan 27th, 2010 06:04 pm by Johan Steele |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 4th, 2010 01:16 pm |
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35th Post |
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borderuffian Member
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borderuffian wrote:
In most or all Southern states it was against the law for a slave to carry or use a weapon...except if it was in defense of the master or his property. I believe this exception was actually written into the law in some states. Steiner's description of these servants ("bodyguards" of their masters) carrying weapons may be correct.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 5th, 2010 12:47 am |
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36th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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It's also important to understand the man may have had an agenda in speaking of numbers of armed black men in the ranks. There is no corroborating evidence of his claim. No one else seems to have seen the 3000 mentioned by Steiner. Not Longstreet, EP Alexander, certainly not Jeff Davis.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2010 12:59 am |
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37th Post |
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Will Posey Member
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No doubt there were black men with the Confederate armies, but not nearly the vast numbers some claim. Many a slaveowner whose son went to war detailed a slave to go with the boy to look after him. Besides attending to personal needs, that looking after would also entail taking up a weapon to protect his charge. However, those who would claim that teamsters, cooks and launderers could not be soldiers need look to our modern-day army.....there, most teamsters, cooks and launderers are -first and foremost- soldiers, enrolled, trained and equipped. Even though most blacks were not officially enrolled, many did fight and many received pensions for their service. But, again, not the large numbers some would have us believe. There should be an acceptable middle ground somewhere.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 9th, 2010 05:48 pm |
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38th Post |
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HankC Member
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Actually, in today's service, most teamsters, cooks and launderers are contractors... HankC
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| Posted: Tue Feb 9th, 2010 07:05 pm |
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39th Post |
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borderuffian Member
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Will Posey wrote: "...those who would claim that teamsters, cooks and launderers could not be soldiers need look to our modern-day army.....there, most teamsters, cooks and launderers are -first and foremost- soldiers, enrolled, trained and equipped. Even though most blacks were not officially enrolled, many did fight and many received pensions for their service. But, again, not the large numbers some would have us believe. There should be an acceptable middle ground somewhere. Those who were enlisted in the Confederate army no matter their duties were soldiers. Last edited on Tue Feb 9th, 2010 07:06 pm by borderuffian |
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| Posted: Tue Feb 9th, 2010 10:15 pm |
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40th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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I tend to go w/ the idea that if the CS didn't consider a man a soldier why should I be contrary? Genl Lee, Longstreet, Bragg, the President & Sect of War of the CS etc seemed to be quite unaware of them. Therefore they were a statistical anamoly like women disguising themselves as soldiers. Yes it happened but was rare, very rare.
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