Civil War Interactive Discussion Board Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register


Black Confederates - General Civil War Talk - Civil War Talk - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
 Moderated by: javal1 Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  Next Page Last Page  
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rating:  Rating
AuthorPost
 Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 03:54 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
21st Post
borderuffian
Member


Joined: Fri Mar 13th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 104
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

swampfox16 wrote: There certainly were not hundreds and hundreds of thousands of black confederates, but reason would have it that there were a great deal of them. Conservative and liberal estimates of their number are likely biased. According to an SCV Camp site ".. A Union sanitary commission officer saw 3,000 black armed combatants in the Confederate Army moving through Fredricksburg, Va., in 1862."

The Steiner account of 3,000 black Confederates in an army of 64,000 is fairly consistent with other Confederate records.

In Hollandsworth's study of Confederate pensioners of Mississippi he found 1,739 blacks out of a total of 36,000.

In the Official Records there is a report of a Confederate division that had 483 servants and attendants among a total of 11,237 men.

Comparing the three-

Steiner..................3,000 / 64,000.....4.7%

MS Pensions..........1,739 / 36,000.....4.8%

OR report.................483 / 11,237.....4.3%

These numbers give support to the claim of 50,000 (or more) blacks in the Confederate army.

Last edited on Mon Jan 18th, 2010 03:58 pm by borderuffian



 Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 04:39 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
22nd Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1060
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I don't believe Steiner was commenting on the whole ANV, but Jackson's troops.

483 servants & attendents... are these soldiers? I don't believe the CS considered them so. If so the aggregate combat strength of the CS should be increased.



 Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 07:44 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
23rd Post
HankC
Member


Joined: Tue Sep 6th, 2005
Location:  
Posts: 517
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

The Virginia pension application asks the applicant the name of their master, in what unit he served and the nature of the applicant's 'work'.

That seems to imply that the pensioner was *not* a soldier.


HankC



 Posted: Fri Jan 22nd, 2010 02:20 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
24th Post
borderuffian
Member


Joined: Fri Mar 13th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 104
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

borderuffian wrote: Black involvement in the Confederate army was varied:

Slaves

Servant

Cook, Teamster, Musician-  Enlisted or hired out by slaveowner.

Free Blacks

Servant (hired)

Cook, Teamster, Musician-  Enlisted or hired.

Private (enlisted)


 

Here's an account of a free black who was a servant in the Confederate army-

"Enlisting in the Palo Alto Confederates from his home in Palo Alto, Mississippi, at age 17, Andrew Martin Chandler was mustered into Company F. of Blythe's 44th Mississippi Infantry. He participated in several campaigns with 19 year old Silas Chandler, his childhood playmate, friend and former slave of his parents.

Andrew was captured ar Siloh and was held prisoner in Ohio. While there Silas made repeated trips home to Mississippi to bring Andrew needed goods. Andrew was later exchanged, he and Silas went home and returned to their old unit. Andrew was later wounded at The Battle of Chickamauga. After this battle, while in a battlefield hospital, surgeons prepared to amputate Andrew's leg. Silas used a gold coin, (given to him by Andrew's mother to take care of him if anything happened), to bribe the surgeons staff to release Andrew. Silas carried Andrew on his back several miles and loaded him on a railroad boxcar headed for Atlanta. In Atlanta, Silas took him to a regular hospital where his leg and probably his life was saved by Silas's attention. Silas stayed with Andrew and took daily care of him until his family could join him.

The following is from a 1950 typed transcript of handwritten notes made from an interview with Andrew Martin Chandler in 1912:   Andrew told the story of Silas Chandler that served with him in the Confederate Army. He said that Silas was a former slave that was owned by his parents and given his freedom papers just before the War. Even though Silas was granted his freedom, he insisted on going to war with Andrew his childhood friend. Silas told Andrew he was older and could watch out and protect him if needed. Even though Silas was still considered Andrew's servant by the other men and blacks in the unit, Andrew said that Silas displayed just as much hatred for the Yankees and fought as hard as any other soldier in the unit...."

http://trees.ancestry.com/pt/ViewStory.aspx?tid=11020007&pid=-153551424&oid=5aea5023-018e-4b86-8002-7788050d662f&pg=32768



 Posted: Fri Jan 22nd, 2010 09:00 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
25th Post
19bama46
Member
 

Joined: Thu Mar 23rd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 146
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

borderuffian wrote: borderuffian wrote: Black involvement in the Confederate army was varied:

Slaves

Servant

Cook, Teamster, Musician-  Enlisted or hired out by slaveowner.

Free Blacks

Servant (hired)

Cook, Teamster, Musician-  Enlisted or hired.

Private (enlisted)


 

Here's an account of a free black who was a servant in the Confederate army-

"Enlisting in the Palo Alto Confederates from his home in Palo Alto, Mississippi, at age 17, Andrew Martin Chandler was mustered into Company F. of Blythe's 44th Mississippi Infantry. He participated in several campaigns with 19 year old Silas Chandler, his childhood playmate, friend and former slave of his parents.

Andrew was captured ar Siloh and was held prisoner in Ohio. While there Silas made repeated trips home to Mississippi to bring Andrew needed goods. Andrew was later exchanged, he and Silas went home and returned to their old unit. Andrew was later wounded at The Battle of Chickamauga. After this battle, while in a battlefield hospital, surgeons prepared to amputate Andrew's leg. Silas used a gold coin, (given to him by Andrew's mother to take care of him if anything happened), to bribe the surgeons staff to release Andrew. Silas carried Andrew on his back several miles and loaded him on a railroad boxcar headed for Atlanta. In Atlanta, Silas took him to a regular hospital where his leg and probably his life was saved by Silas's attention. Silas stayed with Andrew and took daily care of him until his family could join him.

The following is from a 1950 typed transcript of handwritten notes made from an interview with Andrew Martin Chandler in 1912:   Andrew told the story of Silas Chandler that served with him in the Confederate Army. He said that Silas was a former slave that was owned by his parents and given his freedom papers just before the War. Even though Silas was granted his freedom, he insisted on going to war with Andrew his childhood friend. Silas told Andrew he was older and could watch out and protect him if needed. Even though Silas was still considered Andrew's servant by the other men and blacks in the unit, Andrew said that Silas displayed just as much hatred for the Yankees and fought as hard as any other soldier in the unit...."

http://trees.ancestry.com/pt/ViewStory.aspx?tid=11020007&pid=-153551424&oid=5aea5023-018e-4b86-8002-7788050d662f&pg=32768

Just last week, I saw on Antiques Roadshow, the original duguerrotype of the famous Chandler Boys that we have probably all seen. The owner is the direct descendent (gg grandson) of Andrew and has reconnected with the gg grandson of Silas and they are now friends...really neat segement..



 Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 04:16 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
26th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1060
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Why is Silas Chandler the only account of a Black CS soldier that I ever see, aren't there supposed to be more out there?



 Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 05:58 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
27th Post
19bama46
Member
 

Joined: Thu Mar 23rd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 146
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Johan Steele wrote: Why is Silas Chandler the only account of a Black CS soldier that I ever see, aren't there supposed to be more out there?

Probably because he is the most well known.. the photo (dugueryotyoe SP?) is seen everywhere...

By the way, I am coming to accept your conclusions as to the number of black confederates, even tho I still have some issues with Confederate black non combatants not being considered soldiers... but that is a semantics issue



 Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 09:08 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
28th Post
HankC
Member


Joined: Tue Sep 6th, 2005
Location:  
Posts: 517
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

There is more to the oath of enlistment, drill, roll call, drawing supplies, giving and following orders and fighting then semantics...


HankC



 Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 09:23 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
29th Post
borderuffian
Member


Joined: Fri Mar 13th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 104
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Isn't it time someone brought out the "Krick Study"....

Last edited on Tue Jan 26th, 2010 09:31 pm by borderuffian



 Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 09:29 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
30th Post
borderuffian
Member


Joined: Fri Mar 13th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 104
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Wonder what version it will be?

 

A.

"Robert K. Krick’s unpublished article on the number of black Confederates based on an analysis of 100,000 service records. According to Krick only 20 – 30 non-white soldiers could be discerned."

http://cwmemory.com/2007/07/07/how-many-black-confederates-were-there/

 

B.

"...Robert Krick, author of 10 books on the Confederacy, says he has studied the records of 150,000 Southern soldiers and found fewer than a dozen were black..."

http://www.acwrtq.com/1_Files/article-black-confederates-and-history-B.html

 

C.

"...Krick studied the service records for about 200,000 confederate soldiers and found, in his words, 'six, or twelve at the very most' black confederate soldiers..."

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/talkinghistory/CivilWarForum/CivilWarForum-2003-March.html

 

 

Version            Black Confederates                Service Records

A                     20-30                                       100,000

B                      <12                                          150,000

C                     6-12                                         200,000

 

Wow, one number gets smaller while the other gets larger...



 Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 02:04 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
31st Post
Mark
Member
 

Joined: Mon Mar 30th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 434
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

This may be a dumb question, but if there were statistically significant numbers of black soldiers fighting for the Confederacy, why was there such controversy over Gen. Cleburne's proposal to arm them?

Mark



 Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 03:52 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
32nd Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

There are no dumb questions, Mark.

Hang around the CW boards for a while and "black confederates" will show up. Again and again and again.

My take: Of nearly a million military-able slaves and freedmen (SWAG) in 1860, there just would have to be some musket-toting black soldiers. I take that as a given. And I'm one of those who doesn't count civilian workers, slave or free, as a soldier. I go along with the idea of enlisted, ranked, paid, et alii, are requirements.

Officially, there were none. Practically speaking, were you a regimental commander, you'd welcome a recruit of any color. Can he march, follow orders and shoot? OK. You're a soldier.

But there are dumb answers.

Ole



 Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 05:49 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
33rd Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1060
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

BorderRuffian your numbers of Black Confederate soldiers are 5000 IIRC, are they the same here as CWT or factasy? Just curious.



 Posted: Wed Jan 27th, 2010 05:50 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
34th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1060
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

As for Krick, the answer may simply be the difference between soldiers and not. When doing research it is possible to come across information that excludes as well as adds.  Krick has studied far more actual records than you or I.

Last edited on Wed Jan 27th, 2010 06:04 pm by Johan Steele



 Posted: Thu Feb 4th, 2010 01:16 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
35th Post
borderuffian
Member


Joined: Fri Mar 13th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 104
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

borderuffian wrote:  

Here's the part of the Steiner report that mentions black Confederates. 

The only item worthy of notice or debate would be- 

"Most of the negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabres, bowie-knives, dirks, etc."

Nothing unusual about the rest.  3,000 black servants, teamsters, cooks intermingled within a Confederate army would be rather typical.



"Wednesday September 10 [1862].—At four o’clock this morning the rebel
army began to move from our town, Jackson’s force taking
the advance. The movement continued until eight o’clock p.m.,
occupying sixteen hours. The most liberal calculations could not
give them more than 64,000 men. Over 3,000 negroes must be
included in this number. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms,
not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but
in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were
shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white
men in the rebel ranks. Most of the negroes had arms, rifles,
muskets, sabres, bowie-knives, dirks, etc. They were supplied, in
many instances, with knapsacks, haversacks, canteens, etc., and
were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederacy
Army. They were seen riding on horses and mules, driving wagons,
riding on caissons, in ambulances, with the staff of Generals,

and promiscuously mixed up with all the rebel horde. The fact was
patent, and rather, interesting when considered in connection
with the horror rebels express at the suggestion of black soldiers
being employed for the National defence."

pages 10-11-
http://www.edinborough.com/Learn/cw_nurses/Steiner.PDF


In most or all Southern states it was against the law for a slave to carry or use a weapon...except if it was in defense of the master or his property.  I believe this exception was actually written into the law in some states.

Steiner's description of these servants ("bodyguards" of their masters) carrying weapons may be correct.



 Posted: Fri Feb 5th, 2010 12:47 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
36th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1060
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

It's also important to understand the man may have had an agenda in speaking of numbers of armed black men in the ranks. There is no corroborating evidence of his claim. No one else seems to have seen the 3000 mentioned by Steiner. Not Longstreet, EP Alexander, certainly not Jeff Davis.



 Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2010 12:59 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
37th Post
Will Posey
Member
 

Joined: Thu Dec 3rd, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 1
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

No doubt there were black men with the Confederate armies, but not nearly the vast numbers some claim. Many a slaveowner whose son went to war detailed a slave to go with the boy to look after him. Besides attending to personal needs, that looking after would also entail taking up a weapon to protect his charge.

However, those who would claim that teamsters, cooks and launderers could not be soldiers need look to our modern-day army.....there, most teamsters, cooks and launderers are -first and foremost- soldiers, enrolled, trained and equipped. Even though most blacks were not officially enrolled, many did fight and many received pensions for their service. But, again, not the large numbers some would have us believe. There should be an acceptable middle ground somewhere.



 Posted: Tue Feb 9th, 2010 05:48 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
38th Post
HankC
Member


Joined: Tue Sep 6th, 2005
Location:  
Posts: 517
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Actually, in today's service, most teamsters, cooks and launderers are contractors...


HankC



 Posted: Tue Feb 9th, 2010 07:05 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
39th Post
borderuffian
Member


Joined: Fri Mar 13th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 104
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Will Posey wrote: "...those who would claim that teamsters, cooks and launderers could not be soldiers need look to our modern-day army.....there, most teamsters, cooks and launderers are -first and foremost- soldiers, enrolled, trained and equipped. Even though most blacks were not officially enrolled, many did fight and many received pensions for their service. But, again, not the large numbers some would have us believe. There should be an acceptable middle ground somewhere.
Those who were enlisted in the Confederate army no matter their duties were soldiers.

Last edited on Tue Feb 9th, 2010 07:06 pm by borderuffian



 Posted: Tue Feb 9th, 2010 10:15 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
40th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1060
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I tend to go w/ the idea that if the CS didn't consider a man a soldier why should I be contrary? Genl Lee, Longstreet, Bragg, the President & Sect of War of the CS etc seemed to be quite unaware of them. Therefore they were a statistical anamoly like women disguising themselves as soldiers. Yes it happened but was rare, very rare.



 Current time is 11:05 amPage:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  Next Page Last Page  
Top




UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.2200 seconds (13% database + 87% PHP). 32 queries executed.