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 Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2010 11:58 am
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borderuffian
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HankC wrote:
"...Frederick Douglass says, "There are at the present moment, many colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down  and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government."


Quite a statement. Rather than blindly accepting  it, what is Douglass’ motivation to make it, whether true or false? After all, we know he wanted the federal government to enroll black soldiers and, if the CSA was doing so, then so much the better for his effort.


What of Lewis Steiner’s account of 3,000 black confederates on the march through Frederick MD during the Antietam campaign?

....
Steiner...is a staunch abolitionist supporting Douglass’ quest of enlisting black soldiers....

HankC


Do you have a source for that?

I have found both a bio and obit for Steiner. 

Neither of which indicates any connection with abolitionists.



 Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2010 05:43 pm
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borderuffian wrote: HankC wrote:
"...Frederick Douglass says, "There are at the present moment, many colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down  and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government."


Quite a statement. Rather than blindly accepting  it, what is Douglass’ motivation to make it, whether true or false? After all, we know he wanted the federal government to enroll black soldiers and, if the CSA was doing so, then so much the better for his effort.


What of Lewis Steiner’s account of 3,000 black confederates on the march through Frederick MD during the Antietam campaign?

....
Steiner...is a staunch abolitionist supporting Douglass’ quest of enlisting black soldiers....

HankC


Do you have a source for that?

I have found both a bio and obit for Steiner. 

Neither of which indicates any connection with abolitionists.

 
Oh, probably just an urban legend.
 
What does his bio say about his feelings, if any, on slavery?



 Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2010 06:58 pm
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borderuffian
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HankC wrote:
Oh, probably just an urban legend.
 
What does his bio say about his feelings, if any, on slavery?

Nothing



 Posted: Fri Feb 19th, 2010 02:09 pm
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borderuffian
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borderuffian wrote:  

Here's the part of the Steiner report that mentions black Confederates. 

The only item worthy of notice or debate would be- 

"Most of the negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabres, bowie-knives, dirks, etc."

Nothing unusual about the rest.  3,000 black servants, teamsters, cooks intermingled within a Confederate army would be rather typical.



"Wednesday September 10 [1862].—At four o’clock this morning the rebel
army began to move from our town, Jackson’s force taking
the advance. The movement continued until eight o’clock p.m.,
occupying sixteen hours. The most liberal calculations could not
give them more than 64,000 men. Over 3,000 negroes must be
included in this number. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms,
not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but
in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were
shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white
men in the rebel ranks. Most of the negroes had arms, rifles,
muskets, sabres, bowie-knives, dirks, etc. They were supplied, in
many instances, with knapsacks, haversacks, canteens, etc., and
were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederacy
Army. They were seen riding on horses and mules, driving wagons,
riding on caissons, in ambulances, with the staff of Generals,

and promiscuously mixed up with all the rebel horde. The fact was
patent, and rather, interesting when considered in connection
with the horror rebels express at the suggestion of black soldiers
being employed for the National defence."

pages 10-11-
http://www.edinborough.com/Learn/cw_nurses/Steiner.PDF



Some have complained that there is nothing that corroborates the report of Steiner.

Actually, Arthur Fremantle's Three Months in the Southern States does exactly that. This is the same army (ANV) that Steiner reported on only 9 months before-

"25th June [1863]....we watched two brigades pass along the road. They were commanded, I think, by Semmes and Barksdale, and were composed of Georgians, Mississippians, and South Carolinians. They marched very well, and there was no attempt at straggling; quite a different state of things from Johnston's men in Mississippi. All were well shod and efficiently clothed. In rear of each regiment were from twenty to thirty negro slaves, and a certain number of unarmed men carrying stretchers and wearing in their hats the red badges of the ambulance corps..."


(p.118)

At that time regiments were averaging about 400 men-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysburg_Confederate_order_of_battle

As a percentage the 20 to 30 blacks per regiment as described by Fremantle is very close to the Steiner numbers-

Fremantle

20 / 400 = 5.0% or

30 / 400 = 7.5%

Steiner

3000 / 64000 = 4.7%  (Steiner's numbers were for the entire army)

He doesn't say anything about them being armed but does report on meeting servants that were armed. This one with a rifle-

"6th July....I saw a most laughable spectacle this afternoon-viz., a negro dressed in full Yankee uniform, with a rifle at full cock, leading along a barefooted white man, with whom he had evidently changed clothes. General Longstreet stopped the pair, and asked the black man what it meant. He replied, "The two soldiers in charge of this here Yank have got drunk, so for fear he should escape I have took care of him, and brought him through that little town." The consequential manner of the negro, and the supreme contempt with which he spoke to his prisoner, were most amusing. This little episode of a Southern slave leading a white Yankee soldier through a Northern village, alone and of his own accord, would not have been gratifying to an abolitionist..."

(p.141)

Apparently, General Longstreet saw nothing unusual about an armed black Confederate.


http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/fremantle/fremantle.html

Last edited on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 10:57 pm by borderuffian



 Posted: Sat Feb 20th, 2010 12:14 pm
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Old Blu
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http://savannahnow.com/do/2010-02-17/nc-historian-earl-ijames-deliver-2010-ww-law-lecture



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