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 Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 02:04 am
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Unionblue
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Ole, 19bama46, & barrydancer,

Can we agree, that in 19th century politics, a president-elect was just that, the next guy to take office after THE still-serving President would leave office?

Do any of you find anything within the US Consitution of 1860, that gives the president-elect ANY power to issue orders to the Congress, the Army or the Navy, to carry out any of his express wishes BEFORE the sitting President leaves at the end of his appointed term?

After we settle those questions, I then think we can have a serious discussion on what president-elect Lincoln could have done before he was sworn in as President.

A good website for the US Constitution is the US Constitution online found at:

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

I suggest we start with Article 2, Executive Branch.

What say you?

Sincerely,

Unionblue

Last edited on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 02:30 am by Unionblue



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 Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 01:24 pm
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19bama46
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Unionblue wrote: Ole, 19bama46, & barrydancer,

Can we agree, that in 19th century politics, a president-elect was just that, the next guy to take office after THE still-serving President would leave office?

Do any of you find anything within the US Consitution of 1860, that gives the president-elect ANY power to issue orders to the Congress, the Army or the Navy, to carry out any of his express wishes BEFORE the sitting President leaves at the end of his appointed term?

After we settle those questions, I then think we can have a serious discussion on what president-elect Lincoln could have done before he was sworn in as President.

A good website for the US Constitution is the US Constitution online found at:

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

I suggest we start with Article 2, Executive Branch.

What say you?

Sincerely,

Unionblue
Blue,My post was with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek...It was meant to poke fun at the whole concept of a president elect who makes policy, and otherwise acts as if he has been inaugurated already... apparently, I did not do so good a job with this as I thought
Ed

Last edited on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 01:26 pm by 19bama46



 Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 06:02 pm
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Marmaduke
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Please:

I have one paste from this site http://historian.house.gov/question081709.shtml

"The Constitution states, in Article I, Section 4, that "The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by law appoint a different day." However, “[The President] may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them...” according to Article 2, section 3, meaning if the President so chooses, Congress can return from a recess period to work on matters in an emergency or ‘special session.’ An example of a ‘Special Session’ of the House being called can be found with President Abraham Lincoln during the early years of the Civil War. Lincoln called Congress back into session on 4 July 1861 throughout 6 August 1861 to discuss war measures."

Can a president do this in advance for to allow time of travel for the officers, when he will be first in office? I do not know.



 Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 08:24 pm
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Unionblue
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19bama46 wrote: Unionblue wrote: Ole, 19bama46, & barrydancer,

Can we agree, that in 19th century politics, a president-elect was just that, the next guy to take office after THE still-serving President would leave office?

Do any of you find anything within the US Consitution of 1860, that gives the president-elect ANY power to issue orders to the Congress, the Army or the Navy, to carry out any of his express wishes BEFORE the sitting President leaves at the end of his appointed term?

After we settle those questions, I then think we can have a serious discussion on what president-elect Lincoln could have done before he was sworn in as President.

A good website for the US Constitution is the US Constitution online found at:

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

I suggest we start with Article 2, Executive Branch.

What say you?

Sincerely,

Unionblue
Blue,My post was with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek...It was meant to poke fun at the whole concept of a president elect who makes policy, and otherwise acts as if he has been inaugurated already... apparently, I did not do so good a job with this as I thought
Ed



Ed.

Thank you for your clarification on your post, it is appreciated.

However, at the time, my question was directed more at another poster.

I happen to agree with your own view, that the president-elect is pretty much powerless to do anything until he is actually sworn in.

Sincerely,

Unionblue



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 Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 08:32 pm
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Unionblue
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Marmaduke wrote: Please:

I have one paste from this site http://historian.house.gov/question081709.shtml

"The Constitution states, in Article I, Section 4, that "The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by law appoint a different day." However, “[The President] may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them...” according to Article 2, section 3, meaning if the President so chooses, Congress can return from a recess period to work on matters in an emergency or ‘special session.’ An example of a ‘Special Session’ of the House being called can be found with President Abraham Lincoln during the early years of the Civil War. Lincoln called Congress back into session on 4 July 1861 throughout 6 August 1861 to discuss war measures."

Can a president do this in advance for to allow time of travel for the officers, when he will be first in office? I do not know.

 

Marmaduke,

The key word here in your question is "Can a president do this in advance..." perhaps, but not a president-elect.

Now lets look at your question with Lincoln sworn in as President on March 4, 1861.  What were the conditions of the country when Lincoln finally became President?  When did Congress adjourn?  What were the conditions of travel in 1861?  How long would it take Congressmen and Senators to travel back to Washington from their home States and districts?  And what were the political considerations that would have Lincoln wanting the Congress back on July 4, 1861?

Should be a fun discussion.

Sincerely,

Unionblue



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 Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 11:09 pm
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Marmaduke
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I know he were not president before then, but That is my question: can he inform them before hand, that they will have advance notice to be there when he takes office?

They can refuse, but still I ask if he must notice them.
(It does me sad for my English, but it is late.)



 Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 11:22 pm
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ole
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Don't apologize for your English, Marmaduke. We've seen a lot worse from many.

It remains that a president-elect is free to organize his staff and signal his intentions and get ready for assuming power. But he has no actual power until he takes the oath of office at his inauguration. Lincoln certainly did some behind-the-scenes manipulations and negotiations while waiting for his turn. We just don't have as much publicity on his as we do on the latest president-elect.

There is a recent book, "Lincoln, President Elect" by Harold Holzer which examines what Lincoln did as president elect. Haven't read it yet, but it is an area of history that promises to fill in some blanks. Holzer is one of the most respected Lincoln historians. I'll look forward to some feed back from those who have read it.

Ole



 Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 11:27 pm
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Marmaduke
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President-elect? Do you mean before he is president? If so, This is what I mean: what must he president-elect do to notice the congress officers before he takes office?



 Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2009 12:14 am
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Marmaduke,

The President-Elect can not do anythong officially with Congress. The Constitution gives him no such power. The most he can do is have individual meetings with Congressmen and Senators arranged by his transition team. That's really all he can do until he takes office.



 Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2009 05:07 am
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Marmaduke
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javal1 wrote: Marmaduke,

The President-Elect can not do anythong officially with Congress. The Constitution gives him no such power. The most he can do is have individual meetings with Congressmen and Senators arranged by his transition team. That's really all he can do until he takes office.


I am asking about that, and also his duty to call them

If he is president elect, and it takes time for congress officers to get there, then as president elect calling them, would they have to be there when he becomes president? Or would he have to wait until he his president before calling them, and only then they would have to start travelling there?

Also, does he have a duty to call them? Or can he just let them stay on holiday, and then use their powers because they are not there?

Last edited on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 05:09 am by Marmaduke



 Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2009 10:23 am
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Unionblue
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Marmaduke,

If I may ask, what country are you from?

When it is decided to choose a new leader, does the old leader immediately leave office?  Can the new leader call upon the national legislature to meet and begin action or considering some of his ideas on how to run the country?

How does it work in your country?

Sincerely,

Unionblue



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 Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2009 01:35 pm
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Marmaduke
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I am from Denmark, we have a monarch chief executive, and have not had civil war for almost 500 years. We now have democratic bicameral legislature similar to America, but I do not know how it work with a democratic chief executive. In the American Civil War, people started to dissent in response to the choice of new president. But I am not asking about meeting with the legislature before his coronation: I am only asking about giving them notice in advance of it so that they will be there when he first take office.
I ask if he can do this, and if it is required when there is emergency like it stated in the American Constitution. There is time period between election and coronation, so I ask what is the process for when emergency happens between these two events, and the previous president does not want to call the congress, but elected president does. Must he give advance notice to the congress, or can he simply inform them whenever he want: even not at all?

Last edited on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 01:39 pm by Marmaduke



 Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2009 01:45 pm
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ole
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A new president is elected in early November. He does not become president until his inauguration -- presently January. When Lincoln was elected, his inauguration was March 4. In the interim, he is president-elect.

Coincidently, Lincoln's inauguration marked the end of the 36th congressional session. Most went home on March 5th. The 37th Congress would normally meet the following December.

We're likely all confused about whether Lincoln could have, upon his inauguration, asked the Congress to remain in session. Half of the house of representative's terms expired at the end of that 36th session, and 1/3 of the Senate. I am, at least, unsure of whether he could have legally extended their terms for a special session.

When he called for a special session to convene on July 4th, I'm assuming he allowed time for the states to call for special elections to elect their new congressmen.

Today, given the situation in 1861, we might assume that he'd want a sitting Congress in place to help deal with the secessions. It was not quite so simple.

We see those who insist that Lincoln welcomed the absence of a Congress that might interfere with his intentions to prosecute a war. The way I see it, retaining Congress, if possible, would have signalled an intent to start a war. Upon assuming office, Lincoln was tasked with a very delicate situation. I doubt that a sitting Congress would have helped the situation.

Ole



 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 12:30 am
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Marmaduke wrote: I am from Denmark, we have a monarch chief executive, and have not had civil war for almost 500 years. We now have democratic bicameral legislature similar to America, but I do not know how it work with a democratic chief executive. In the American Civil War, people started to dissent in response to the choice of new president. But I am not asking about meeting with the legislature before his coronation: I am only asking about giving them notice in advance of it so that they will be there when he first take office.
I ask if he can do this, and if it is required when there is emergency like it stated in the American Constitution. There is time period between election and coronation, so I ask what is the process for when emergency happens between these two events, and the previous president does not want to call the congress, but elected president does. Must he give advance notice to the congress, or can he simply inform them whenever he want: even not at all?


Marmaduke,

Thank you for the above information and explanation.

Please bear with me just a bit more.

I read that in Denmark in the fall of 2008 rumors persisted that Ander Fogh Rasmussen, the Prime Minister of Denmark, desired to become the head of NATO.  On April 4, 2009 Ander Fough Rasmussen confirmed that he wished to become the head of NATO.  After some debate and deliberation, Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen resigned and left the Minister for Finance and Vice President of Venstre Lars Lokke Rasmussen to be the new Prime Minister of Denmark.

My question is, did Lars Lokke Rasmussen give any advance warning to the Danish parliament that he needed to have them in session when the former PM (Ander Fogh Rasmussen) had rumors circulating in the fall of 2008 that he might resign if he got to be the head of NATO?  Even if he was absolutely certain that he was to become the new PM, would he had been able to call parliament into session?

I would appreciate your opinion on the above.

Sincerely,

Unionblue

Last edited on Fri Nov 27th, 2009 12:31 am by Unionblue



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 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 03:31 am
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This is becoming overly complicated. The president-elect is given consideration, a security detail, federally sponsored travel and many kinds of perks but, until he takes the oath of office upon his inauguration, nothing he says has any official weight. He is a venerable non-person.

Until our current president, no one knew exactly what was going on in the -elect part. This one was very much interested in publicly declaiming what he was about while in the -elect phase. So it's as new to us as it must be to you.

But it remains that the president-elect can't do much more than signal his intentions.



 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 04:05 am
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Exactly Ole. I think all Marmaduke was asking was whether Lincoln could have officially notified Congress, as President-Elect, that he wanted to address them the day after his inauguration (for example). Well, he could say it, but his words had zero authority, and Congress would have been under no obligation to oblige him.



 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 04:39 am
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Hello;

for those answers you should contact the appropriate sources. I am only asking the US policy at the time regarding that matter.



 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 05:50 am
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Marmaduke,

Thank you for taking the time to read and consider my posts above.

Ole & javal1 have it right on the money/are absolutely correct in their views in my own opinion.

There is no law, no section in the US Constitution, no past practice or tradition that the President-elect has any power, obligation, right or legal obligation to notify the US Congress of his wants or desires concerning ANYTHING political, PRIOR to his being sworn in as President.

In other words, this is a political dead-end as well as a historical one.

Sincerely,

Unionblue



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 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 10:54 am
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So the president elect can take congress power by planning not to call congress? That is my question.



 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 03:45 pm
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Without the firing on Ft. Sumter, he couldn't assume the power he did. In the absence of a sitting Congress, he could do little more than twiddle his thumbs while waiting for the next session to sit ... December, I believe was the scheduled session.

But the Constitution provides for extraordinary power under extraordinary circumstances. For example, an armed rebellion. Had Congress been seated when Sumter was fired on, he would have had to filter his moves through Congress.

This simple fact gives rise to the idea that he didn't retain the Congress because he meant to wage war. I think that's poppycock, but others don't. (It keeps the board lively.)

Ole



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