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 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 03:55 pm
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Old Blu
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I will always wonder why he didn't wait until Congress was back in town.



 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 08:24 pm
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Unionblue
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Old Blu,

If your house is on fire, do you simply wait until the fire department comes or do you try to get the kids and wife to safety and save what you can?

Sincerely,

Unionblue



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 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 09:59 pm
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Marmaduke
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But you also do not sit and watching the fire build for months without telling the fire department until it serves your purpose, as Lincoln did. Some civil war readers say that this gaves the suspicious indication of ambition.

Last edited on Sat Nov 28th, 2009 01:42 am by Marmaduke



 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 10:25 pm
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ole
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Lincoln had hoped that he could defuse the situation diplomatically. (Detzer, "Dissonance")

Although it seems logical that he ought to have asked Congress to stay on, there were some complications with that. First, asking Congress to stay on would certainly not have gone over well with the secesh -- especially considering that Lincoln did not want to appear at all threatening. Second, there were the expired terms of many of the Congressmen. Could he, by simple declaration, extend their terms? For how long?

"But you also do not sit and watching the fire build for months without telling the fire department until it serves your purpose, as Lincoln did. Some civil war readers say that this gaves the suspicious indication of ambition."

Why not? The sitting administration and Congress watched the fire build for four years and did nothing. Lincoln, with no power at all could have solved the problem in four months?

Last edited on Fri Nov 27th, 2009 10:34 pm by ole



 Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 01:46 am
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Marmaduke
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He cannot refuse to call them, and then say excuse of they were not there to act in they're absence.

The prior president did not need congress because he said he had no power to stop the states. Lincoln tried to stop them, which needed congress there, but did not notice them. This looks like a plot.

Last edited on Sat Nov 28th, 2009 01:52 am by Marmaduke



 Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 06:37 am
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Unionblue
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Marmaduke wrote: But you also do not sit and watching the fire build for months without telling the fire department until it serves your purpose, as Lincoln did. Some civil war readers say that this gaves the suspicious indication of ambition.


Marmaduke,

When did the house catch on fire?

In order to deal with the fire, did the fire department have to be called right away?

But more to the point, was Lincoln supposed to call the fire department when it was NOT his house and already had others living in the house who could have called the fire department on their own?

I am talking about when Lincoln was the President-elect and President Buchanan was the resident in charge before he was sworn in.  I am rather amazed at how Buchanan's lack of action gets no attention, while Lincoln has to run like crazy to keep things together when he takes office.

Now, if you have switched from the President-elect mode and are now talking about Lincoln being sworn in as President in March, but not calling Congress back into session until July, we are in new territory.

What laws did Lincoln break by not calling Congress back for an emergency session?  What did the Congress charge him with by not doing so?  What new powers did he assume by doing such and what ambitions were attained by not asking Congress into emergency, early session?

Sincerely,

Unionblue



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 Posted: Sun Nov 29th, 2009 03:16 am
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Marmaduke
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Secret plotting by a leader to overthrow a country and take power by causing a war, is treason.
There is also 600,000 counts of first-degree murder.

Last edited on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 01:01 pm by Marmaduke



 Posted: Sun Nov 29th, 2009 02:58 pm
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Unionblue
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Marmaduke,

Getting elected in a free and open election is hardly "secret."

What's sad is Lincoln could lead a country to unite in its effort to restore the Union while Davis with his State sovereignty issues pulled him down to defeat.

"Died of a theory" as he said.  Seems like sovereignty of the states and those who advocated it at the expense of the Confederacy should be charged with treason and murder of that attempt.

Sincerely,

Unionblue



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 Posted: Sun Nov 29th, 2009 03:25 pm
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Naim Peress
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Damn, what have I started here?)(_



 Posted: Sun Nov 29th, 2009 10:50 pm
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Naim Peress,

I think it is called a "debate." :)

What I find interesting is there are those who support the idea of States Rights as something special or desirable, even after historical accounts of the concepts failures and downright abuses, to the very people it is said to protect and serve.

That's why I thought this an excellent thread to point out the problems Jeff Davis had with the States within his own Confederacy that demanded they be treated as sovereign nations at the expense of their own independence, putting state goals ahead of national ones, which led to the destruction of the Confederacy in the end.

Makes me wonder why the State sovereignty crowd almost swoon over the idea with so many bad examples in our own nation's history.

Oh, well, back to the debate.

Sincerely,

Unionblue



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 Posted: Tue Dec 1st, 2009 09:38 am
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Marmaduke
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Deleted by Admin



 Posted: Tue Dec 1st, 2009 10:27 am
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Marmaduke,

No, nothing has been uncovered because no evidence or proof has been offered and it has been repeatedly told you that a president-elect has no power in law or in the US Constitution to initiate the actions you claim he could have.

You have produced no law, no constitutional amendment or article, nor any historical evidence or source to support your views.

In other words, you have given an opinion with nothing else to support it.

But I am sure that I and others on this forum would appreciate any such evidence you could supply in support of your opinion.

Do you have any?

Unionblue



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 Posted: Tue Dec 1st, 2009 02:12 pm
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javal1
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Marmaduke (aka ThomasWashington) has been deleted from the members list. We have now banned him via username, e-mail address, and IP address. We have also filed a formal complaint with his server Comcast in West Bloomfield, MI. Servers tend to be responsive to businesses who are being harrassed by trolls and delinquents.

I apologize to all members for the disruptions in what has been some great back and forth lately.



 Posted: Tue Dec 1st, 2009 06:28 pm
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barrydancer
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Aww, I missed the deleted posts. Though I can't imagine they were very constructive to debate.

What I always found strange about his line of reasoning, though, was that he excoriated President Lincoln for doing anything that might not be explicitly stated in the Constitution, while simultaneously excoriating President-elect Lincoln for not doing things that AREN'T mentioned in the Constitution at all.



 Posted: Tue Dec 1st, 2009 06:54 pm
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HankC
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Lincoln could have called a special session of the new Congress one minute after his inauguration.

A number of the previous Congress’ had been so called before their scheduled December sessions.

In fact, a few had more special sessions than regular ones…


HankC



 Posted: Tue Dec 1st, 2009 07:00 pm
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ole
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With that individual, logic or historical fact is beside the point.

Old Blue posted: I will always wonder why he didn't wait until Congress was back in town.


Wait to do what?  Congress wasn't scheduled to sit until December. Sumter was fired on in mid-April with some loud talk about taking Washington City and Baltimore and Boston riding on the tails of the bombardment's celebration. Was Lincoln to toss all that off as just loud talk? You and I and others might have gambled and not called in state militias to protect the capital. Lincoln preferred to not gamble.

I wonder about the call going out to ALL the states with the resulting tilt of the next four seceding. But I guess he couldn't just ask for the loan of troops from just some of the states; it had to be all or none.

Ole



 Posted: Tue Dec 1st, 2009 07:12 pm
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ole
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Lincoln could have called a special session of the new Congress one minute after his inauguration.

Agreed, Hank, and nevermind that extending the terms of a few might be thin-ice treading. But. (There's always a but or a however.) How would that look in Montgomery?

I see nothing nefarious in not retaining Congress. Others' mileage may vary. Lincoln hoped that no one would do anything stupid, like firing on Ft. Sumter, and that a peaceful summer would bring some of the secesh to their senses.

It's a complicated process, trying to get into Lincoln's brain.

Ole



 Posted: Tue Dec 1st, 2009 07:24 pm
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Texas Defender
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ole-

  I am convinced that having the southerners fire on Ft. Sumter was EXACTLY what Mr. Lincoln wanted them to do.



 Posted: Tue Dec 1st, 2009 07:38 pm
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ole
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Perhaps, TD, but only perhaps. Kinda looks like that, doesn't it?

I suspect that Lincoln expected a shooting match that would be over quickly. The one who fired the first shot would wear a black hat and the one who got shot at would wear a white hat. That it did go considerably beyond an anticipated high-noon shootout we can see clearly now.

So you can figure he manipulated the events and I can figure that he suffered from unintended consequences. He did, in fact, underestimate the resolve of the southron.

Of such is made CW discussion boards.

Ole



 Posted: Wed Dec 2nd, 2009 07:14 am
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Unionblue
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TexasDefender,

Of course Lincoln wanted the South to fire on Ft. Sumter.  Or Ft. Pickens or any other point that would have the South firing first.

Davis wanted the same thing.  He wanted the North to fire on someone or something so he could claim the other side started the war.

Wanting a thing does not mean a thing has to happen.  Davis and his cabinet weren't stupid and I can never go along with the idea that the South was 'tricked' into firing the first shot at Sumter.

The South had a reason for doing so and felt it was worth the risk.

We are left with the results of that choice.

Sincerely,

Unionblue



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