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 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 01:09 am
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borderuffian
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.......................

Last edited on Fri Feb 19th, 2010 07:14 pm by borderuffian



 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 01:10 am
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susansweet3
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Didn't read like a joke at all .



 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 01:24 am
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javal1
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"It was meant as a joke..."

A joke??!! A JOKE??!! You joke about the 153rd PA?? Pox upon you! We can joke about war, peace, flags, causation and VD but we NEVER joke about the 153rd!!!!!

 

:shock::cool::D



 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 03:05 am
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Johan Steele
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It obviously wasn't meant as a joke. Not the style he's ever shown here or on other boards.



 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 03:07 am
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susansweet3
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Hence the reason I replied as I did Johan



 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 03:10 am
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Johan Steele
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Just as it wasn't meant as a joke when someone says the US flag stood for slavery for 300 years... umm 2010-1776= 300? It flew over a slave nation only until 1865 when the EP was made fact. Being unaware of that and calling others names for their supposed stupidity... would be amusing if it weren't so sad. As some show at every opportunity it isn't about honest debate or discussion but scoring points and insulting those they disagree w/.

If the presence of the US flag elicits so much bile & hate w/in someone I have simple advice: have the intestinal fortitude to move. Cuba, or Venzuela will gladly accept them and if they feel freer under that flag then good for them. I guess I'm of that old love it or leave it crowd.

The CBF means different things to different people. I may look at it as a battle flag flown by some pretty gutsy men fighting for their lives. Other's mileage differs greatly. My grandmother in law looks at it as the symbol of the klan. Argue all you want that the flag has been hijacked by those gutless wonders but she will still point at that CBF as the symbol of the klan and their white suprecy goals. It's what she saw as a child and in 90 odd years she has seen nothing to change her mind. Frankly,I wouldn't disagree w/ her in that context.

BorderRuffian will demand proof... though knowing his track record w/ creativly edited photos(1st LA Native Gurad)I take such a demand for all that it's worth. Looking for pictures of those gutless wonders in bedsheets might be fullfilling for some; I have all the white sheets I need on my toliet paper rools already, I don't need more.

Like it or not the CBF has come to represent the cowardice of the klan and their neo nazi friends. Yes the CBF was corrupted, but I have seen no real effort by anyone to take it back.

The NAACP has every right to boycott what they want; they have their own agenda yes. But anyone but a history rewrite specialist knows full well why that flag was originally put on top of the SC statehouse... and it was kept there for thirty odd years. The NAACP apparently has no intention of letting why it was flown over the SC statehouse be forgotten or swept under the rug. I don't blame them.

My dime, take it as you will.



 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 12:53 pm
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csamillerp
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but much of the hate symbolism now associated with the flag comes from the inaction (and actions) of Southerners themselves.


that came from your own post, i find that a personal attack to all southerners including me. I am not racist, i am not a member of any hate group, and saying that the actions and inaction of southerners themselves is a direct result of hate groups is being prejudice.



 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 01:03 pm
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borderuffian
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csamillerp wrote: but much of the hate symbolism now associated with the flag comes from the inaction (and actions) of Southerners themselves.


that came from your own post, i find that a personal attack to all southerners including me. I am not racist, i am not a member of any hate group, and saying that the actions and inaction of southerners themselves is a direct result of hate groups is being prejudice.


Absolutely.

The Klan had made extensive use of the US flag (as I have shown).  Mr. Steele has done nothing to stop that activity.  Let's apply the same rule to you, Mr. Steele.



 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 01:39 pm
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TimK
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It is only a personal attack if it is taken as a personal attack. I don't see it that way. Painting all southerners with the same brush stroke is a little too broad.

Here are some more symbols of hate. I don't see the American flag in here.

http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/default_graphics.asp



 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 02:59 pm
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Johan Steele
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Mr Steele has done something about the use of the US flag by your friends Borderruffian, got my first disorderly conduct fine out of the deal. Beside me were 2 x 80+ year old veterans and a good dozen young men younger than me. Judge was trying not to laugh when he handed out the fines. He noted that our splashing white sheeted men w/ yellow paint filled water baloons was inflamatory and certainly instigated the violence. I paid the fine and laughed when the elderly gent beside me stated we at least saw their true stripe.

I do it every time I call them raving cowards for stealing the flag I served under. Now that I've told you what I've done let's hear from you. What have you done to clear the CBF from their corruption of the CBF Borderruffian? I mean other than google images of klan members w/ the US flag, carefully culling out images w/out the US flag present I might add. I have to give credit you've done a good job sullying the US flag w/ it's connection to the klan and their friends. I have seen you do nothing to clear the CBF from their association w/ it. I'd like to be proven wrong.



 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 04:08 pm
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Doc C
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I can respect what my ancestors, both union and csa, accomplished/went through without waving a flag. Did cw veterans have this same argument about the csa flags. Doubt it, many went on with their lives and rekindled their friendships with their past enemies. For example, CSA Lt. Gen. Joseph Wheeler. Prior to his death he chose to be buried in the union section, rather than the confederate, with Ord, Sheridan, Crook. Also, Gen Frederick Grant, son of U S Grant, was an honorary pallbearer. In my mind the current controversy has little or nothing to do with the civil war but about current economic/political/social reasons. Also, those individuals who proudly wave either flag probably (could be wrong) don't have an idea what it means other than those who see it as a symbol of hate.

Doc C



 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2010 04:55 pm
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susansweet3
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Doc, I agree with you .  I have ancestors on both sides.  All fought bravely.  So far the only one that I have found that died, died in the Mexican War in Mexico before the Civil War.

The start of this whole discussion was the Southern Cross over the State House.  I am sure many don't realize the reason it was flown over the State House in South Carolina.  It was raised in the 60's as a symbol of South Carolina's refusing to accept the Civil Rights Acts and desegradation .  Had nothing to do with the Civil War . 

The flag that is now flying next to the monument is the battle flag , a square instead of the rectangular one that flew over the State House.

So what did it really mean over the State House?  Hmmmm Sure doesn't seem to be the reason stated by many in honor of their ancestors who fought . 

My ancestors went home, farmed their lands , some moved West and raised their families.  Funny my Southern Grandmother never mentioned the Civil War that I remember at all .  She was too busy raising two little girls after her husband died in the Swine Flu epidemic 1919.  She had many stories to tell about the depression and coming to California during WW2 because that is where the jobs were.  

Susan



 Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2010 12:07 pm
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borderuffian
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"Some of us are old enough to remember the KKK beating and lynching blacks while carrying the flag."

borderuffian wrote:
javal1 wrote: Peruse the footage from the 60's marches in Miss. and Alabama and you see beatings, etc. by those wearing Confederate regalia.

I've seen such footage and I don't recall any Confederate flags or regalia.

Are you sure you are seeing the actual footage?...or the Hollywood re-enactment?

Hollywood has been known to 'flag-up' certain events.

...and it's that sort of fictional imagery which adds to the "symbol of hate" idea.



 Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2010 12:17 pm
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TimK
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check out this tattoo...

http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/racist_noose.asp



 Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2010 04:34 pm
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Johan Steele
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borderuffian wrote: "Some of us are old enough to remember the KKK beating and lynching blacks while carrying the flag."

borderuffian wrote:
javal1 wrote: Peruse the footage from the 60's marches in Miss. and Alabama and you see beatings, etc. by those wearing Confederate regalia.

I've seen such footage and I don't recall any Confederate flags or regalia.

Are you sure you are seeing the actual footage?...or the Hollywood re-enactment?

Hollywood has been known to 'flag-up' certain events.

...and it's that sort of fictional imagery which adds to the "symbol of hate" idea.

Other's mileage would appear to vary.  I'll take Javal's memory though as I trust its accuracy.

Fictional Hollyweird, like Birth of a Nation?  No there is nothing fictional about the CBF having been corrupted by the klan and other racist/hate groups.  It takes some careful culling to make certain you don't find the CBF.

 

So do you want to quit when you're only 100 pts behind?  Or are you going to continue to call the owner of this board a liar?

"Now that I've told you what I've done let's hear from you. What have you done to clear the CBF from their corruption of the CBF Borderruffian?"  Or do you not believe the CBF has been corrupted?



 Posted: Fri Feb 19th, 2010 02:32 pm
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borderuffian
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"Some of us are old enough to remember the KKK beating and lynching blacks while carrying the flag."


Such can be people's perceptions...after they have been inundated for decades with the fake imagery of movies and television.

This doesn't make them a liar nor am I calling them a liar.



 Posted: Fri Feb 19th, 2010 08:21 pm
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19bama46
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javal1 wrote: "If people that say the confederate flag symbolizes hate then they just dont have any sense at all."

Some of us are old enough to remember the KKK beating and lynching blacks while carrying the flag. I still see it carried by white supremacists. Not once have I ever seen the SCV, UDC or other person so concerned about their heritage confront these idiots. Why?

You can blame the NAACP all you want, but much of the hate symbolism now associated with the flag comes from the inaction (and actions) of Southerners themselves.


Sadly, that is true.

today, many will not confront them because they have become accustomed to their foreheads and can't stand the idea of a wrench being placed in the middle of it.

the only thing I would quarrel with is that things have changed within the SCV, maybe too little too late, but that is a post for a different day. UDC as well, I think, but I am not a member, can't meet the basic membership qualifications!

Additionally, while it is true that southern inaction is to blame for a lot of the views surrounding the CBF, it was only a very small faction that ever came from the actions of southerners.

Joe, you remember it... I lived thru it and remember well the opinions and statements of my family still living in Alabama at the time... it truly was a different time



 Posted: Fri Feb 19th, 2010 08:33 pm
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19bama46
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Oh, and I am just about as southern as they come.



 Posted: Fri Feb 19th, 2010 08:50 pm
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A couple of years ago, the Lt Commander of the SCV was the featured speaker at our annual convention (ILLINOIS).  He spoke to this exact issue and asked the question... " where was the SCV when the civil rights battles were going on?" We really have only ourselves to blame for the situation that exists today vis a vis the CBF. We should have recognized the problem and acted. Unfortuately we were either silent or on the wrong side of the issue.

the organization has taken great pains to change and the mantra today is "Heritage not Hate". It is no longer the home of the bigot or the racist.

We have a lot of work to do to repair the image of the battleflag., but IMHO it is worth the effort.

Ed



 Posted: Fri Feb 19th, 2010 10:26 pm
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Johan Steele
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bama, thank you for what you and others like you w/in the SCV have done in regards to the CBF. I asked a SCV commander yesterday what he thought could be done about the tarnished image of the CBF. His reply was telling to me: "Kick the KKK & LOS, losers out. But it isn't that easy."

I don't know if the CBF can ever really be taken back, but I can hope so.



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