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 Posted: Thu Apr 27th, 2006 02:14 pm
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javal1
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Can't tell you how my blood is boiling.....

 Klan Group Plans Rally at Antietam
  The World Knights of the Ku Klux Klan has received permission to rally at Antietam National Battlefield in June, park superintendent John Howard said Tuesday.  The U.S. Constitution is the basis for the permit that allows the white supremacist group to assemble June 10 at Mumma Farmstead, according to a copy of the document provided by the group's commander, Gordon Young.  "We have a requirement to evaluate applications that are submitted under the First Amendment of the Constitution," Howard said.  According to Howard, the group's application indicates about 100 people will turn out for the rally. The park has identified separate areas where media and protesters would assemble, if necessary, and several law enforcement agencies will be responsible for maintaining order, Howard said. (Offsite: Hagerstown MD Herald-Mail)



 Posted: Thu Apr 27th, 2006 09:54 pm
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calcav
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I enjoyed the spirited debate over the last several weeks concenring the thread: "Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of racism?" The answer to this discussion will be quite evident on June 10th when that banner is dragged through the mud of hatred at that hallowed site.



 Posted: Thu Apr 27th, 2006 11:30 pm
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javal1
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But Calcav, haven't you heard? The "new" SCV, the one that took over via coup, deplores racism and regrets that the Confederate flag was allowed to be denigrated for decades. I've heard them say it over and over again. And they don't represent a more racist and "hard-line" regime. I've heard them say it over and over again. Surely they'll all be there protesting this dragging through the mud of their symbol. Won't they? ;)



 Posted: Fri Apr 28th, 2006 01:53 pm
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MAubrecht
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People like this - make it so much harder for people like me - that support the flag.

However, we have to acknowledge that they have the same Constitutional  right as everyone else to assemble and express their opinions. That is what America is all about, whether it's the Boy Scouts, or PETA, or this group here...



 Posted: Fri Apr 28th, 2006 02:56 pm
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TimHoffman01
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MAubrecht wrote: People like this - make it so much harder for people like me - that support the flag.

However, we have to acknowledge that they have the same Constitutional  right as everyone else to assemble and express their opinions. That is what America is all about, whether it's the Boy Scouts, or PETA, or this group here...

 

Couldn't have said it better.  That is the blessing, and the curse, of our Republic.  In order to keep what is good, we too often have to let the idiots speak too, so long as all they do is speak.  It doesn't mean we have to listen.

Of course, the downside of that is 1) that some other idiots WILL listen to them.  2) If one doesn't counter idiot speak, then all that is being heard is idiot speak, 3) silence is too often taken as consent.

Those last two, I think, are how the SCV found itself in the current dilemma it is sitting in.  Back in the late 1800's they tried to legally prevent misuse of the Confederate flags only to be told by the US Supreme court that they can't (1st amendment).  So they decided to not publicly acknowledge the hate groups taking control of the flags and to try to counter it with historical education or memory.  Unfortunately actions speak louder than words and now they are marginalized, the symbols seem permanently corrupted and coopted, and their command ranks are now being taken over by political radicals.  With the group splintering over political lines, it will be interesting to see how all this will play out.

Although, I just had a thought.  I wonder how the various groups would react to a body of Confederate-uniformed Reenactors rallying around the Battleflag clearly in opposition to the Klan and singing "the Battle Cry of Freedom."  If that wouldn't create a news stir, nothing will.



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 Posted: Sat Apr 29th, 2006 05:18 am
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Tecumsah
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The Sons of Confederate Veterans are always claiming that they challenged those who misuse the Rebel Flag and lost in court. They now seem to say that there is nothing more they can do. Why don't they have a counter demonstration and pass out flyers pointing out that this is exactly what they are opposed to? Why not pass out flyers showing the position of the SCV and why they think the Klan and groups like them, should not be allowed to misuse the Rebel Flag in this manner and that groups like this do not represent the SCV? (or any other true Civil War Heritage Group) My guess is the "new" SCV won't show up because they are in lock step with their buddies in groups like the Klan, the Council of Conservative Citizens and the League of the South (LOSers). They sure wouldn't want to offend their buddies, now would they? Hopefully, the true members of the SCV, now reorganizing to challenge the takeover by the White Supremists supporters, will be there to challenge this long festering disgrace.



 Posted: Thu Jun 1st, 2006 06:23 am
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Tecumsah
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Just as I thought. The silence from the neo-Confederates is deafening.



 Posted: Thu Jun 1st, 2006 08:36 pm
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MAubrecht
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"...neo-Confederates is deafening"

Wait a minute... Really, that post serves no purpose other than to "stir the pot" so to speak. I think that the lack of comments in the press makes perfect sense. This event means nothing. It doesn't warrant a response from them - or any other southern preservationist organization either. If nobody cares - then nobody goes - then they get no press - and the event drifts away into a forgotten memory. I totally understand why there is silence across the board. And I stand by the fact that they have an equal right to express their opinion as any other organization in the United States (right or wrong - positive or negative). This is not a "long festering disgrace" as you stated, it is a perfect example of the very freedoms and liberties that we all should be grateful for whether it's the Christian Coalition, or The Girl Scouts, or yes even the KKK. The fact that they have the ability to hold this rally is a testament to the very same American soldiers who fought and died on battlefields around the world.

For example, I am a strong Christian-Conservative and I really-really-really dislike Michael Moore. However, I thank God everyday that I live in a country where people like Michael Moore can create a movie specifically for the purpose of slandering and insulting the President and that movie is shown in theaters across the country. That my friend is freedom and the American way. Try having a racist rally or show a anti-government film (on federal property no less) in another (less-blessed) country and chances are you'll end up in jail (or worse). I just choose to look at things like this in a positive light and not give them the attention that is craved by the organizers.

 



 Posted: Thu Jun 1st, 2006 09:19 pm
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javal1
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Mike,

I respect your views, but I really diagree with much of your post. First of all, some pots need to be stirred.

Tecumseh can speak for himself, but what I took from his post was not criticism of the press, but criticism of the "new" SCV for keeping quiet. Your contention that to speak out against the rally merely provokes undeserved attention flys straight in the face of what the SCV claims their mandate is - to protect the honor of the Confederate banner. So evidently the way they protect the true meaning of the flag is by curling up in a corner while that banner is disgraced by a bunch of mental cripples in sheets.

I can't count the number of press releases we've received from the SCV when it suits their agenda, but suprisingly not a single one decrying this rally. Nothing would thrill us more than to run the headline "SCV Decries Klan Abuse of Confederate Flag". But alas, no release. Denny Sweeney, who I guess is the Commander in Chief of the group even called me two weeks ago to complain about something we wrote. Surprise - he didn't take the opportuniity then either. I'm sorry Mike, if that's how they fight for what they claim they stand for, then they should step aside and let a group slightly more sincere take the helm.

This isn't a question of the Klan's right to rally. It's a question of the true purpose of the SCV, and whether they stand with or against the Klan. As for your last comments regarding Michael Moore, it really should have been put in another forum, so all I'll say is it isn't slander if it's true. Take care...



 Posted: Fri Jun 2nd, 2006 05:23 am
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Tecumsah
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Javel---You hit the nail right on the head. That is exactly what I meant. The "new SCV" is all about hypocrisy, not only when it comes to the flag but in other areas as well. Camps of the SCV are removing the US Flag and the Pledge from their meetings. They have opposed a Union Monument at Bentonville. They opposed the Lincoln statue in Richmond even though it represents an historical event and not a political idealogy. They opposed a resolution by Former Virginia Gov. Gilmore because it included ALL of Viriginia's Civil War Sons-Union and Confederate-Black and White. The list goes on and on. Just a month or so ago they refused to support a living history weekend in Suffolk because it included Union reenactors. It's time to let them know that this hypocrisy will be exposed and condemed. They are always screaming about the lack of respect the Rebel Flag gets. What do they expect when they won't stand up to these white supremacist groups that wave that flag in everyone's face and spew hate? I agree with the Union Veterans Union position on the Rebel Flag. It belongs at proper Confederate Memorial Services, historically accurate reenactments and museums. It does not belong on public buildings and it does not belong in the hands of groups like the Klan, the CCC, and the League of the South. The SCV will have no credibilty until they finally come out and oppose this nonsense. The Klan rally at Antietam is a golden opportunity to take a stand. I won't hold my breath.



 Posted: Fri Jun 2nd, 2006 01:19 pm
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MAubrecht
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You both make very good points and obviously you both have had some experience in the matter and the facts to back up your experiences and perceptions. I can't argue with that and I cannot claim to know the status and the political climate of the leaderships that you mention.

My experience has always been very good with members of those groups, but once again - my point of the post in the first place was the irony of it all. That the very same sacrifices that we pay tribute to (at places like Antietam) ultimately secured the freedoms of both pro- and anti-"anything" to organize a rally in the first place.



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 Posted: Thu Jun 8th, 2006 09:15 pm
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javal1
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Indy,

I certainly don't. The reality is that to make a Civil War park acceptable to all, it should be for all. If we as history lovers are given all this wonderful green space, I'm not sure we have a right to say "you can't use it if you don't feel the proper amount of deference". It's a park, paid for by the American public, all of which should have equal accesibility to it.

I DO have a problem with dog-walkers in parks that don't clean-up after themselves, but I guess that's a different story.

Edit: I would also add that there's nothing I'd like to see more than hundreds of people engaging in other activities on Saturday, whether they be Civil War related or not, while totally ignoring the hooded fools. Make it clear that they're as insignificant as we know they are.

Last edited on Thu Jun 8th, 2006 09:18 pm by javal1



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 Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 09:53 pm
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aphill
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I am puzzled as to why a 5K foot race at Sharpsburg is offensive. There is plenty of precedent for such events.

The National Park Service allows the Chattanooga Track Club to host an annual 15K in the spring on the roads of the Chickamauga Battlefield. In the fall, they host a marathon that utilizes the battlefield roads. By the way, this isn't a new event; the Chickamauga Battlefield Marathon started in 1976 and I think it has been run every year since.

The YWCA in Gettysburg has an annual "Spirit of Gettysburg" 5K race every 4th of July weekend. It attracts over 1,000 runners and it utilizes battlefield roads, too. For 27 years, Vicksburg has hosted a 10K race called "The Run Through History." It runs through the park as well. These are just the ones I know off the top of my head.

Outside the Civil War, Valley Forge now hosts a 5-mile "Revolutionary Run." I think there are also foot races held at Princeton and at Yorktown, too.

So what's the big deal about holding a foot race at Sharpsburg?

Foot races are a very low impact activity. Obviously they do no harm to the battlefield or else the NPS would not allow them to continue. There also must not be much of a public outcry to stop such events -- again, the NPS keeps granting the permits and allowing the events to take place. Furthermore, even if the charity involved is not directly benefiting the battlefield, the cost for permits to hold the race on the public roads there does. I would also venture a wager that at least some of the folks running in these races are Civil War buffs who are well aware of what happened on these fields. Some may be even doing the race to honor an ancestor who fell there.

Moreover, runners and cyclists already utilize the public roads that pass through various battlefields every day anyway. Like it or not, the roads through these battlefields are publically owned and are already being used for recreational purposes on an every day basis by people who may or may not appreciate what happened there. And, I do think this is a good thing. The more folks who appreciate battlefields -- even if its just for their scenic and asethetic "green space" value -- the more allies we have in the fight for preservation. We need all the help we can get. And if allowing an occasional race or other low impact, non-historical activity illustrates to more people why battlefields are important and earns us more potential allies in the fight for preservation, I say that is a good thing.

Battlefields mean many things to different people. For some, its a place to study tactics. For others, it may be a place to quietly reflect. Still others may see it as a place for relaxation and recreation. And others still who might have no interest at all in history might go there to study the birds or the plants that exist there. All of these people can coexist peacefully and enjoy different aspects of a battlefield.



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 Posted: Mon Jun 12th, 2006 02:42 pm
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susansweet2
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I did find it strange to see runners all over the battlefield at Chickamuaga . when I was there two years ago.  But the place that I fund the most frustrating was Kennesaw .  There were so many joggers, and walkers that I could find no place to park to visit the battlesites around the battlefield.  Every single parking spot in the park was filled as i drove around .  Many places cars were just parked at the side of the road. 

Thought it was interesting when I read yesterday there were 39 klansmen and 200 police enforcement at Antietam this week end.



 Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 04:39 pm
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MAubrecht
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Just watched the video taken at this event. Nice to see about 15 klan - 15 protesters and 50 cops in between... what a complete waste of time and tax dollars.



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