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Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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Never apologize for nothing; your friends don't need it and your enemies won't believe it. Straight forward and simple as it gets. Politicians... make me ill and are the primary reason for most of the ills in this nation. So anyone here met a politician worth his/her weight in used cat litter?
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Johnny Huma
Johnny Huma
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No never met one and probably never will...I agree with you that they are the ones who bring on a lot of the ill's on this country..And I will answer my own question in an earlier post here..When is enough, enough?...It will never be enough...Because before it can be enough there has to be someone to accept the apology and I do not see that happening..There will still be that part of the black community that will never forgive just to harbor bad feelings toward whites...Not all blacks will, heck some of the ones I talk to could not tell you a lick about slavery or the Civil War for that matter nor do they care. In fact I cannot see how we can apologize for our white ancestors who may not want to give an apology anyway..So what are we saying here "We are sorry for what they did but they really are not sorry"..How dumb and stupid is that..? But if a Politician thinks he can get a few votes out of it then he will apologize for anything..I am with you Johan "Never apologize for anything"...
Huma
Last edited on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 01:31 am by Johnny Huma
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13th, 2007 06:44 pm |
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23rd Post |
remember the 54th
Member
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I hate to sow what likely will be considered more seeds of discord, but gentlemen, this apology is absolutely necessary and long overdue. Many white Americans, perhaps due to concern that they themselves will be unfairly blamed for the "peculiar institution," often discuss slavery ambivalently. Most would agree that chattel slavery was/is "wrong," but that same majority typically (certainly not in all cases) refuses to acknowledge the sustained psychological, economic, social, academic, and political impacts of the institution. Each American, regardless of his or her prefix, is affected by slavery in dozens of ways every day. It would literally require at least a dozen more posts for a person with only a moderate knowledge of the subject to even begin to do that discussion justice. Since, for now, we haven't that much time, I will give you a cursory overview of slavery's economic legacy:
Slavery: 1619-1865 (in North America; longer in parts of South America and the Carribean)
Jim Crow Segregation: 1877-1965
Realization of Civil Rights Act: late 1970s-1980s
African American gains go on the decline during the Reagan Era (Reaganomics) due to rising unemployment, poverty, imprisonment, and drug use.
Institutional Racism (I.R.) in home ownership via:
Land Ordinance of 1785
Northwest Ordinance of 1787
Mexican Cession of 1848 (review the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo)
Gold Rush of 1849
Homestead Act of 1862
Practice of "redlining" even amidst the G.I. Bill during the 20th century
All of these laws/policies, whether official or unofficial, helped create a very wide schism between property owning whites and largely landless blacks. Even as of the new millenium, blacks had an average wealth of about $6,000, while whites had an average wealth of $88,000 according to separate studies done by United for a Fair Economy and the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies.
As I said, it would take at least a dozen posts to discuss all the ways slavery continues to impact us as Americans. If you don't realize what those effects are, it may be because they do not negatively impact you.Attachment: btrywgnr.jpg (Downloaded 180 times)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14th, 2007 01:22 am |
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24th Post |
Johnny Huma
Johnny Huma
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Of course slavery had an impact on our Nation and so did everything else that happend in our past. That is called History..What exactly (54th) do you believe will come from an apology for Slavery that you say is long overdue? Will this heal our Country.? Would the black community that harbors ill feelings over slavery openly forgive all us whites of the 21st Century who had nothing to do with it in the first place. I don't think so and if you do then I think your kidding yourself and need a reality check. If the polls you put up on the average black making 6000 dollars is true it is because that is what they are getting on welfare. But it is really funny how I drive a 1994 Jeep and have worked my whole life and have done pretty well but a lot of blacks in our town drive new Chrysler 300's and my gosh if you ask them where they work they answer that they dont...Hmmmm...This guy is selling drugs as a lot of blacks in our town are..Did History do this to them because they were slaves or because they see an easy way to make big money and dont have to work doing it. Also I know blacks that have gone to college and made a real good life for themselves because of their studies..These programs were paid for by my tax dollars..I unfortunatly could not afford to go to college because we were just a working class family and we were white and there were no programs for us white kids in the 60's or 70's....So I really get a little urked when people say we owe the blacks an apology over slavery as you can see from my other post here..Slavery and the Civil War are now History so lets keep it like that instead of opening up old wounds...
Huma
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14th, 2007 01:42 am |
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25th Post |
Shadowrebel
Member
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Greetings remember the 54th,
I hate to sow what likely will be considered more seeds of discord, but gentlemen, this apology is absolutely necessary and long overdue.
If you are going to say the apology from the South is long overdue then you need an apology from many other places. Slavery, both black and other races, has been in the world far longer then the Confederacy. It was the Northern States that brought and paid for the slaves to be brought to this country. Why not demand an apology from the United State government?
If you are going to demand apologies for past wrongs against the Negro then you need to start back before the Roman Empire and blame the fellow Negro who sold them to the whites. Since there are no ex-slaves alive today an apology is useless. Slavery is part of history in this country, let it be that and learn from it. Move forward not backward by working to improve conditions for everyone.
By the way I want an apology for all the dumb Polock jokes.
As I said, it would take at least a dozen posts to discuss all the ways slavery continues to impact us as Americans. If you don't realize what those effects are, it may be because they do not negatively impact you.
No slavery does not continue to impact us today, except by those who choose to use it as an excuse for making little progress. What impacts us today is unchanging attitudes toward each other. Things like hate and not understanding the time of slavery impact us. We are too far removed form the ills and wrongs of slavery to continue to blame it for what is wrong today.
Regard
Shadowrebel
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14th, 2007 06:59 am |
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26th Post |
remember the 54th
Member
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Would the black community that harbors ill feelings over slavery openly forgive all us whites of the 21st Century who had nothing to do with it in the first place.
---Mr. Huma
Probably not, but it is far too simplified to argue that an apology for slavery is necessary so that the descendants of slaves will "forgive" the institution's principle benefactors, or as you called them, "whites." I don't think whites need blacks to forgive them, nor is it likely that most blacks actually care about receiving apologies, sincere or not, from whites. The significance of receiving an apology from the Virginia state legislature is that it brings the hope that other ex-slave states, north and south of the Mason-Dixon, are also ready to seriously assess the impact slavery has had and continues to have on this country. Then, perhaps the work of men who were honest, courageous, and committed to justice and equality for all --men like Maj. Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman and Thaddeus Stevens -- will finally be brought into fruition.
When this happens, it can then be said that America has lived up, in entirety, to the principles its forefathers espoused in the Declaration of Independence.
As for the rest of your response, it is so rife with emotion and uninformed, yet nevertheless callow conviction, that it fails to even warrant a response beyond this: please read my post again and make an effort to deal with the facts as they were presented. A host of laws supported by government agencies and white settler vigilantism that systematically kept/keep African Americans from owning property and therefore acquiring wealth tantamount to "average" whites cannot and certainly should not simply be "let go." If addressing entire systems of inequality have an adverse effect on your "old wounds" then that is your problem.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14th, 2007 11:00 am |
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27th Post |
javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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Folks -
This is a valid topic for intellectual discourse. What it cannot become is a forum for racial stereotypes. Talk of "welfare blacks" and "black drug dealers" have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I would be curious to know if the people who claim the effects of slavery are no longer relevent feel the same way about the war in general. Is there anyone who really believes that that 4 year event did not shape the South as it exists today on a myriad of levels? If you believe that a four-year event shaped what we see today, you can't possibly believe that a 400-year one didn't. The effects of both are still visible.
BTW 54th, welcome to the board.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14th, 2007 03:35 pm |
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28th Post |
Johnny Huma
Johnny Huma
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54th,
The members of this site who have read many of my post , realize I do have strong convictions and beliefs and stand by them. I may have overstepped them as Javal's post was intended for me and rightly so. So I will apologize for any thing I have posted that may have been offending to you or anyone else. Realize we all have different opinions and that is what makes this country so great. We all post and write things here from our own expierences and that is what I was pulling from. Things may be different in other parts of the country. So again please accept my apology since my statements were not directed at you personally. And welcome to the board. There are some very well educated people on the board who know a ton of stuff on the Civil War and I have really learned a lot from them...So keep coming and posting...Since I have no more to add to this subject I will make this my last post here..
Thanks
Huma
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14th, 2007 04:33 pm |
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29th Post |
David White
Member
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One case in point was a former slave of a french plantation owner who freed his former mistress/slave. She was given land. She subsequently bought slaves and ran the plantation in order to obtain enough money to free her enslaved family members.
DocC:
I think you are talking about my GGF X 8 Louis Juchreau de St. Denis a minor character of history whose exploration and trading in Texas caused the alarmed Spanish government to establish a town in Texas populated by Canary Islanders called San Antonio and the mission of San Antonio de Valero, of course we know that mission better by its more famous name, the Alamo.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14th, 2007 05:23 pm |
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30th Post |
Doc C
Member
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David
The family is Metoyer. Augustin Metoyer was one of the first in the Natchitohes, La. area in the 18th century. Numerous descendents still reside throughout central and north La. Amazingly many of these individuals favor Augustin whose portrait is in a catholic church in the cane river area.
Doc C
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14th, 2007 05:27 pm |
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 06:05 pm |
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32nd Post |
Digger
Member
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I disagree. The Irish had policies directed against them as well "No Irish need apply". Yet, they don't clamor for apologies, nor do they blame the past for lack of success. In truth, these are not barriers to success (Colin Powell, Oprah Winfrey, for Blacks, and JFK for the Irish). My ancestors were not slave owners, nor did they fight for the Conferderacy to maintain slavery. So I don't beleive that they or there descendents owe any one an apology. In fact, it could be argued that blacks owe them a statement of gratitude for thier sacrifice. Certainly, they could have chosen to not serve the Union cause.
If my people can get past the religious persecution they suffered at the hands of others, .........well you get the point. Get over it.
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indy19th
Guest
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1. I'm not really sure what an apology really accomplishes. For one thing, any apology I've heard, whether it's from Japan or Germany, has come off as sounding forced, hollow and insincere. THAT, perhaps, is the harm an apology could do. That and bringing up all wounds and maybe creating new ones.
How can an apology, from a current gov't, have any bearing on what happened to those who aren't even around anymore? The whole idea of reparations is so ridiculous that I can't even imagine anyone could call it a good idea with a straight face. You can't specifically quantify what effect that slavery may or may not have had on any American in the present.
2. It's probably easy to be all self-righteous about slavery now. One must wonder where your principles might be if you lived in the south in the 1800's.
And, slightly unrelated but with significance, is it only a 'black and white' issue? Is it fair to say that a future General, who only inherited a slave thru marriage and later set him free, without compensation, is the same as someone else how owned dozens of slaves and/or sold slaves?
Last edited on Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 02:40 pm by
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remember the 54th
Member
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"The Irish had policies directed against them as well "No Irish need apply". Yet, they don't clamor for apologies, nor do they blame the past for lack of success."
Why should/would the Irish "clamor for apologies" when they have had the benefit of being fully absorbed into the "melting pot" and receiving the white privilege --which is entirely unearned --that comes along with it?
And if you're unsure as to what exactly white privilege is, or how discrimination has hampered the African American community as a whole, I invite you to read my previous posts on the subject. While my posts were not intended to be exhaustive, they will equip you with a perspective and a rudimentary knowledge that hopefully will lead you to a greater awareness and insight on the matter.
"In fact, it could be argued that blacks owe them a statement of gratitude for thier sacrifice."
To whom do Blacks owe this "gratitude?" The federal government?? Black people owe the federal government gratitude for ending slavery like a kid who spends the night at Michael Jackson's house owes him "gratitude." Sure it is a nice house but..........."well you get the point."
The U.S. federal government was complicit in the extention and maintenance of both slavery and inequality. Physical slavery ended, but discrimination, which led/leads to inequality, has persisted in every American arena, institution, and sphere. In a roundabout way, one could argue that if race-based discrimination didn't exist, there wouldn't be so many people leaving anti apology posts on this board.
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indy19th
Guest
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remember the 54th wrote: In a roundabout way, one could argue that if race-based discrimination didn't exist, there wouldn't be so many people leaving anti apology posts on this board.
One could argue that and one would probably be wrong. If a former slave posts here, I might offer my regrets to them as to what they may have suffered through. I'm not trying to be facetious. At least when Japan and Germany apologized, there were still people around who had lived through it.
Beyond that, I would hope that the current gov't in place is more concerned about current events than making hollow apologies to no one in particular. Some may see no harm in making an apology. I see it as a can of worms.
For some people, an apology is not enough, nor will anything be enough.
Japan
However, the official apologies are widely viewed as inadequate by many of the survivors of such crimes and/or the families of dead victims. The subject of official apologies is controversial as many people aggrieved by alleged Japanese war crimes maintain that no apology has been issued for particular acts and/or that the Japanese government has merely expressed "regret" or "remorse".[9] On 2 March 2007, the issue was raised again by Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe, in which he denied that the military had forced women into sexual slavery during World War II. He stated, "The fact is, there is no evidence to prove there was coercion." Before he spoke, a group of Liberal Democratic Party lawmakers also sought to revise Yohei Kono's 1993 apology to former comfort women.[36][37]
However, it provoked negative reaction from Asian and Western countries, for example, The New York Times editorial on March 6, “These were not commercial brothels. Force, explicit and implicit, was used in recruiting these women. What went on in them was serial rape, not prostitution. The Japanese Army’s involvement is documented in the government’s own defense files. A senior Tokyo official more or less apologized for this horrific crime in 1993. … Yesterday, he grudgingly acknowledged the 1993 quasi apology, but only as part of a pre-emptive declaration that his government would reject the call, now pending in the United States Congress, for an official apology. America isn’t the only country interested in seeing Japan belatedly accept full responsibility. Korea and China are also infuriated by years of Japanese equivocations over the issue.”[38]
German Nazis propaganda also justified their persecution of the Jewish people on the paranoic ground that the Jewish constantly oppressed and extorted Germans fermenting anti-German sentiment.
Some in Japan have asserted that what is being demanded is that the Japanese Prime Minister and/or the Emperor perform dogeza, in which an individual kneels and bows his head to the ground — a high form of apology in east Asian societies that Japan appears unwilling to do.[39]
Some point to an act by German Chancellor Willy Brandt, who knelt at a monument to the Jewish victims of the Warsaw Ghetto, in 1970, as an example of a powerful and effective act of apology and reconciliation, although not everyone agrees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
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Fuller
E Pluribus Unum
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It's my opinion that we should instead turn our energy to the future and of world issues such as Darfur and the genocide that is presently involving the people there. Slavery was a horrible inhumane and unimaginable life that was forced upon a great many. I have ancestors who fought on those battlegrounds and I can feel many emotions when I really think about it. That means my black neighbor might very well have ancestors who were slaves not too many generations ago. There are emotions that are still raw certainly for them too. I would like to think that America in general views the history of slavery as wrong. Remember the energy Dr. Martin Luther possessed? His focus was always forward. He never viewed himself as a victim. Any truly strong person that comes to mind never does. He took what knowledge and passion he had and pressed on. It's called "advancement." Is an apology totally out of the question? No. If that would give opportunity for a nation and even individuals to be stronger then I am all for it. Is the thought of an apology out of the question to some because it shows a form of weakness? And if an apology is given, I would question those who have their ear stuck out waiting for a response. I am just wondering who would be writting this speech that would need to be very delicately thought through? Who would be delivering it? We also need to remember that it's not so much an apology but the recognition of the wrongs that were committed. It's not just one person standing at the mic taking blame, nor those of us that personally had nothing to do with it. It is validation being given to those who were the victims. I still have to go back to my first sentance though.
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends" Dr. Martin Luther King
Fuller
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 03:53 am |
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38th Post |
remember the 54th
Member
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Apologies for the tardiness of this post -- it was/is an extremely busy week. I'm sure this will be viewed as "inflammatory" by what so far appears to be a rather homogenous board community, but that is of no consequence to me. I feel this needs to be heard, and if you disagree, then why have this forum in the first place? You are all better off posting and chatting about "safe" topics that really don't advance our understandings of one another.
It deeply saddens me that 40 years after the Civil Rights Movement, and 142 years after the collapse of slavery, a great number of white Americans have been unable or unwilling to develop the courage, character, and compass necessary to see things from the perspective of the disenfranchised and take a stand for justice. Your argument is really rather silly, if not absurd. One can't possibly contend, on a website called "civilwarinteractive', that the current government and its constituents need only to be concerned with current events. Are you seriously trying to advance the argument that because no current African American was alive before 1865, there is no place for a discussion on the effects of slavery?
I have heard so many white people express similar views that I wonder if this is simply a common thread amongst whites, as stereotypical as such a query is. Is there some deep rooted fear whites have, of black equality and empowerment? It is just difficult to see how you, or many others on this board could not see a contradiction between this:
Discussions about the impact and ramifications of a four year event are upheld as valid, worthy, and even sacred, while arguments about the 340 year event (North and South America) that precipitated it and led directly or indirectly to it are insignificant, can't possibly show any bearing on our lives today, and should simply not be made!!
Next to Jesus Christ, the Civil War is the most widely researched and written about topic in America. Throughout the South people do reenactments (for no reason) of the war, and one of the most controversial symbols of this country's history is of course the Confederate flag. There are over 8,000 hate groups and/or white supremacist organizations in the U.S., all having the express purpose of curbing the rights and freedoms of people of color, and thereby returning them to a pre Civil War system of impotence. Slavery isn't important or worthy of an apology? The only way one could really believe this, in my opinion, is if they are either a white supremacist, or if they really don't know much about slavery. You did suggest that slavery may not have really been that bad, so I am not sure how to assess you:
"If a former slave posts here, I might offer my regrets to them as to what they MAY HAVE suffered through."
If you don't know much about slavery, then you should study before you offer your opinions. Slavery has bequeathed an absurd amount of wealth and privilege to white Americans (which you simultaneously take for granted and fight hard to protect), and has cripled, in multiple ways, the African/African American masses.
In conclusion, if slavery doesn't matter in America, then nothing matters --not religion, not education, not economics, not politics, nothing. As Dr. W.E.B. DuBois once said, "the problem of the 20th century will be the problem of the color line." This is still true in the 21st century, and you can present no evidence, save your opinions, that seriously dispute this.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 04:18 am |
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39th Post |
| Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 07:11 am |
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40th Post |
ole
Member
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In conclusion, if slavery doesn't matter in America, then nothing matters --not religion, not education, not economics, not politics, nothing. As Dr. W.E.B. DuBois once said, "the problem of the 20th century will be the problem of the color line." This is still true in the 21st century, and you can present no evidence, save your opinions, that seriously dispute this.
54th: It's really kinda neat that you can bring our attention to the toubles caused by racism. Note, I didn't say slavery. Slavery was over (well, officially if not actually) quite some time ago. And I will not deny that few "colored" ever got a fair shake anywhere in the European-dominated world. In anthropological terms, different means danger. Different is inferior. In ancient Nubia, the semites were inferiors. In ancient Rome, everybody was inferior. It's a human conditition and, if there's anything that can't be altered, it's human nature. Given a trend toward consciously giving a "different" ethnic the benefit of the doubt, it remains that the first, human reaction is "different."
In the history of this country, different was marked by ethnicity. Ethnicity can be masked or overcome, as in the case of the Irish and German immigrants, followed by the Scandinavians, Italians and eastern Europeans. It was hard for them in the beginning, because they were different. But, because they were not colored, they got a break. Colored meant inferior and the road was considerably more difficult. But to use colored as an excuse is unproductive.
Being colored is an obvious handicap. It is not an excuse. Too many coloreds have overcome that handicap and risen to greatness -- or, at least, to highly enviable position -- to hold that it can't be done. Wallowing in the disadvantage precludes an effort equal to what others have done. Although I can sympathize with the disadvantage, I cannot accept the blaming of everyone else for a lack of progress. The recent influx of different peoples and their success in achieving their dreams absolutely demonstrates that different is surmountable by earning a part of the dream.
Instead of complaining about discrimination, overcome it.
I will apologize about using the possibly offensive term of "colored." I just don't know of an unoffensive term. When I was young, it was colored or Negro. Then it became "black." Now, I understand it's African-American. That term, I will not accept. It's divisive. One is either American or one is not. There is only one country in the world where you can go and become one of them: America.
The problem has and always will be the color line. So what's new? Can't very well change that. Jump over it. Others have.
Ole
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