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| Posted: Mon Oct 20th, 2008 05:59 pm |
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1st Post |
| Posted: Mon Oct 20th, 2008 07:10 pm |
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2nd Post |
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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If all else fails ask. I someone isn't willing to give their sources and gets all huffy about being asked... enough said.
The net is full of "sock puppets" and those who aren't really interested in the subject but only online to get a rise out of someone. It's easy to claim one thing and never be able to back it up. HIstory & research vs by gosh by golly.
That's why Javal is owed a large thanks for providing a free board where people can learn.Last edited on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 07:11 pm by Johan Steele
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20th, 2008 07:52 pm |
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3rd Post |
javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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"If all else fails ask. I someone isn't willing to give their sources and gets all huffy about being asked... enough said."
Bingo - exactly right. There's no computer program that can cull the pseudo-experts from real experts. The responsibility lies with other members. Demand sources. If none are forthcoming, then use that to evaluate the worthiness of the self-proclaimed experts post. I can remember only one recent thread where that actually happened, and soon after it did happened the thread died out. That in itself should tell you something.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 01:53 am |
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4th Post |
CleburneFan
Member
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Well, I'll fess up right up front. I have never done primary research and everything I know about the Civil War, I learned from the great books. So, I will be very careful to cite the particular book or books from now on when i post because the only authority I have is from the books I've read and how I interpret those books.
But we have to be careful that we don't cross a line in which novices who are interested in the Civil War do not feel welcome to post here or participate in discussions because they lack sufficient authority to do so.
Of course, if the majority does prefer that this board be primarily a place for recognized authorities to participate and others stay out, well, it can be that too. Less schooled folks such as myself will be glad just to read what more learned scholars of the war have to say.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 02:02 am |
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5th Post |
barrydancer
Member
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One of the things that gets drilled into you in graduate school, directly and indirectly, is to always document your sources. The reasons are many. Not only do your cover your own rear from charges of plagiarism, but you address many of the points that JDCDuncan raises. Proper citation allows others to check your work and see from what and whom you are basing your arguments.
I agree with the others; by all means ask someone for their sources. No one worth their salt should get offended.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 02:18 am |
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6th Post |
| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 03:16 am |
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7th Post |
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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Check the sources... is it more complex than that? I read more than most; usually 2-3 books at a time. In my time on the net I've not seen what Duncan alleges. Partly because people on the forums I frequent check resources.
I have seen people purposefully put forth sources that cannot be checked or claim they saw the primary documents at the LOC. Upon checking; the sources either didn't exist or were not available for public vieiwing due to their condition. In short; yes there are trolls out there who frequent forums for a variety of reasons to include the revision of history. Thankfully, most quality forums nail them to the wall.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 03:55 am |
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8th Post |
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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CleburneFan; I applaud you for something rare... you admit you don't know everything. That in itself is a measure.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 04:26 am |
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9th Post |
susansweet
Member
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I am soooo behind everyone in learning about the Civil war as I didn't start til I retired, even then it was not til I drove cross country three years after I retired that I discovered the Civil War . I read two or three books at a time too Johan. I below to two book discussion groups so have to keep two books going . Then there are other books I want to read too so have those going .
I have like Cleburne Fan learned from books not primary research. I also depend on people who know more than I do to recommend the books. I have a notebook I carry with me with names of books written in it I know I will never get too . Not enough time .
This site has taught me quite a bit.
Susan
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| You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post |
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 01:01 pm |
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10th Post |
Bama46
Guest
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barrydancer wrote: One of the things that gets drilled into you in graduate school, directly and indirectly, is to always document your sources. The reasons are many. Not only do your cover your own rear from charges of plagiarism, but you address many of the points that JDCDuncan raises. Proper citation allows others to check your work and see from what and whom you are basing your arguments.
I agree with the others; by all means ask someone for their sources. No one worth their salt should get offended.
When I was in Graduate school, I did the same. I am no longer there, read and learn about th eCW from the perspective of enjoyment. If this board is to be come so legalistic that everydamned thing said must be documented...go over to civilwartalk and read that abomination for a while to get a sense of what I am talking about, then I will be what is known as a former member
JD, I understand exactly what you are talking about
Ed
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 02:04 pm |
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11th Post |
CleburneFan
Member
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JDC Duncan, thank you for explaining further to my thick head what you meant by your post. I really did miss your point. And I do agree with your statement especially given some of the posts we have had here of late in which someone makes a controversial claim, then ignores responses that present evidence to the contrary, then the OP comes back with yet another controversial claim as if they were completely impervious to contradictory evidence.
I'm no scholar of the Civil War. Just a dedicated hobbiest. The History Channel will never include my thoughts in one of their Civil War documentaries. But I have been frustrated by some recent posts in which opinions were just thrown out as land mines for the unwitting who then posted thoughtful answers which were rejected or ridiculed.
I also get that if I throw out the opinion that Judson Kilpatrick was really the greatest cavalry general in the Civil War on either side and not the more highly vaunted Nathan Bedford Forrest, J.E.B. Stuart, Wade Hamilton, even Custer, I'd BETTER supply plenty of compelling evidence based on extensive study of Kilpatrick's war years. To do otherwise does cheapen discussion at this web site and does a disservice to everyone here.
Last edited on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 02:06 pm by CleburneFan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 03:28 pm |
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12th Post |
| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 03:38 pm |
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13th Post |
javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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If you state the Battle of Gettysburg was fought on July 1 - July 3rd, of course no one is going to insist you source it. However when we have a basic fact in question, with both sides insisting they are corect, then asking for a source should be expected.
One thread that comes to mind concerned Sherman and the number of blacks killed, etc. There were wildly different numbers, all being stated as flat-out fact. The is a case where sources by all means could and should be asked for. If that offends anyone, I'm sorry. But the board's about learning, and you don't learn from unsubstantiated opinion stated as fact.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 04:40 pm |
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14th Post |
barrydancer
Member
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Oh, I don't mean to say that every post should be full of citations. Unless the poster wants it to be, of course. Plus, this board, while a serious place for discussion, strikes me as being a bit informal in nature. 
This is a place for learning, by both the well-versed and the novice. If someone disagrees with an assertion, or wants to learn more, I think asking for some sourcing and documentation is fine.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 09:31 pm |
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15th Post |
Bama46
Guest
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javal1 wrote: If you state the Battle of Gettysburg was fought on July 1 - July 3rd, of course no one is going to insist you source it. However when we have a basic fact in question, with both sides insisting they are corect, then asking for a source should be expected.
One thread that comes to mind concerned Sherman and the number of blacks killed, etc. There were wildly different numbers, all being stated as flat-out fact. The is a case where sources by all means could and should be asked for. If that offends anyone, I'm sorry. But the board's about learning, and you don't learn from unsubstantiated opinion stated as fact.
Joe,
If I recall correctly, that thread turned into a disaster for many reasons. Before it was onve rthere were demands for citations for everything up to an dalmost including the time of day. It is an example of what we BOTH are talking about. You from one perspective, me from the other... requests for sources where specific numbers are contested, certainly...demands for sources for inconsequential statements ... not unless you are my professor... MHO
Ed
Ed
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 12:06 am |
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16th Post |
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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Actually; there were very few demands for citations in the most recent "Sherman hero or cold blooded killer" thread; a couple were asked for. As the particular idea presented was... shall we say suprising to those who have studied the subject. If you can't provide a citation or source... it isn't reasoned research but mere heresay or worse, propoganda. I provided several citations and sources because I'm used to being called a liar by those who embrace the Lost Cause and because I was specifically asked for the sources. I'm not a liar; never have been and grow weary of those who never provide sources or any kind of citations calling me such. But then again when all else fails some jump at calling the other guy a liar or a Nazi when they run out of arguments or other avenues. Some call it Godwin's law; w/ reason. And it is an indictment upon their argument, or lack there of.
What I have discovered over more than a decade and more of reading the letters and diaries of the men whe were there is that Sherman was not the Satan some today eagerly accuse him of being. His men generally adored him and his enemies respected him. It was the stay behinders and wannabees who shaped the postwar Lost Cause belief that he was the anti-christ. The people of Savannah were stunned and then thankful when he fed them and his men gave their children a Christmas, yet that is overlooked and ignored because it is/was inconvenient for the Lost Cause.
Again real research over the years has proven to me that Forrest was not the criminal some today call him, Mosby was a MAN with real morals and humanity and men like Quantrill & Bloody Bill Anderson were cowards of the highest order. Both sides had ample men not to be proud of. It was a civil war and those are never pretty. But even with that said, the ACW was far less brutal than the Civil Wars experianced in Europe or Asia.
When someone asks for a citation or source, what is wrong w/ providing it? Unless that request shows there is no source or citation that it is only unsupported opinion? It isn't terribly difficult to state were the bassis for an idea or opinion came from.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 01:04 am |
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17th Post |
Bama46
Guest
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Shane,
You have confused two threads seperated by approximately a year.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 02:16 am |
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18th Post |
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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It applies equally I think. If someone is unwilling to post a link, source or citation you have to wonder why.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 03:10 am |
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19th Post |
| Posted: Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 03:26 am |
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20th Post |
JDC Duncan
Guest
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huh. didn't read this one either.
Last edited on Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 07:26 pm by
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