Civil War Interactive Discussion Board Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register


The Battle of Cold Harbor - Battles and Campaigns - Civil War Talk - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
 Moderated by: javal1 Page:  First Page Previous Page  ...  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Next Page Last Page  
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rating:  Rating
AuthorPost
 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 07:01 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
141st Post
JoanieReb
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 24th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 620
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Ole, you mentioned studying the campaign, and, well, now, it got me thinking of a book that if you mention to most serious CW scholars, they'll turn up their noses and tell you to read Rhea - which I believe you've already done - but I feel compelled to mention one of my guilty pleasures:  Bloody Roads South - The Wilderness to Cold Harbor, May-June 1864, by Noah Andre Trudeau.  I picked it up at a garage sale a few years ago, and to me, it was a delightful read.  Someone else thought so, too, I guess;  it was "borrowed anonymously" from the workplace and never returned.

Most people I've talked with consider it lightweight, but I really did enjoy it.

 

Last edited on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 07:15 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 02:47 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
142nd Post
connyankee
Member


Joined: Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location: Colchester, Connecticut USA
Posts: 83
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I've been meaning to read Bloody Roads South and never have.  I had the opportunity to hear Trudeau speak once and he was very interesting to listen to.  The other stuff I've read are mostly general works.  Clearly, it is Gordon Rhea who has done the most research on the Overland Campaign. 

About maps - I'm a map freak.  Book in one hand and map in the other is what I like to do.  I've found the best ones are in books, with some being better than others.  The absolute best in my opinion are Mark A. Moore's books on Bentonville and Wilmington/Fort Fisher.  These are incredible.  I often bring these materials to the battlefield when I visit them.  Online you can download all of the NPS maps from their website.  The CWPT has some wonderful maps that they include in their mailings.  These have been put on CD.  If you go to the Stones River website,  you'll be treated with about a dozen hand-drawn maps by Ed Bearss. CW traveler.com is another good source for maps online.  I'm sure there a lot of good ones scattered about that I've yet to discover.

connyankee



 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 09:49 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
143rd Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I have the books: Trudeau, Furgurson and Rhea, but I haven't read them. The Overland Campaign falls only into the general, started and stopped, category. My understanding is limited to that general view.

One of these days I will become focussed on that particular campaign. Meanwhile, my concentration is elsewhere. (At the moment, the opening days.)

But I am moved to respond to maps. I LOVE maps! One can't follow a battle narrative without maps. Might that be a fetish?

ole



 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 12:27 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
144th Post
JoanieReb
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 24th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 620
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Y'All

If you have Bloody Roads South, please give it a chance. It is just a delightful read, as far as I'm concerned. I have some books that I consider "old friends", as they fall apart from my gentling myself to sleep reading them. I enjoy them so much: they read very easily and yet move and teach me. I thought that BRS might be one, but it disappeared. And since there were more books to read and buy, I haven't replaced it.

Last edited on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 12:39 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 12:38 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
145th Post
JoanieReb
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 24th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 620
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

"But I am moved to respond to maps. I LOVE maps! One can't follow a battle narrative without maps. Might that be a fetish?"

Fetish, shoot - I thought it was a necessity!

I've got the Michigan flu again.  Not doin' so good, even NASCAR cain't perk my ears up.

I'll try again tomorrow.



 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 06:56 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
146th Post
JoanieReb
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 24th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 620
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Dang it, too sick to sleep!  My lungs keep filling up and I cough myself awake.  Like hitting my head against the wall, it will feel so good when it is over!

"The Overland Campaign falls only into the general, started and stopped, category. My understanding is limited to that general view."

Have you read of Spotsylvania in any detail?  Michael and I had a brief exchange about this earlier in the thread, but it is the ONE BATTLE in the CW that I am completely entralled with. It is the only battle that I have studied in serious detail, just because I cain't stop myself. 

OK, I'm hijacking agian, but Spotsylvania completely captivates me. And, it was just before Cold Harbor...

If I just read the words, "mule-shoe salient", my heart starts beating faster.  G-Burg, ho-hum - Spotslyvania, yes!

Last edited on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 06:58 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 11:16 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
147th Post
Michael C. Hardy
Member
 

Joined: Tue Sep 25th, 2007
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 48
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I think the Cold Harbor has died.... It was fun!

Funny thing about me and Spotsylvania. I had been to the site three times, studying the clash between Lane and Burnside (there is a marker to the 17th Michigan, which the 37th NCT destroyed) before I ever visited the Mule Shoe. And I felt bad about it. It was so close, just a left turn, but my research had taken me in another direction.



 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 11:17 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
148th Post
Michael C. Hardy
Member
 

Joined: Tue Sep 25th, 2007
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 48
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Sorry - that should have been "Cold Harbor thread"



 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 11:30 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
149th Post
ashbel
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 25th, 2008
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 165
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

What a great thread.  I continue to be impressed with the knowledge on the Board.

The question was asked: "Could Grant have used a different strategy?"

The answer is no.  Could he have used different tactics?  Probably yes.

Strategy is the overall approach to running an army or a war for that matter.  It takes into account supplies, troop levels, politics, relations with the powers that be (in this case Lincoln), objectives, the state of the enemies troops and morale, etc.  Tactics are the methods for fighting the actual battles.

Grant and Lee were both master strategists.  They understood exactly what they had to do.  Both made lots of mistakes in tactics but neither lost sight of their objectives and the political climate in which they operated.

We can argue all day about Grant's tactics at Cold Harbor.  But the reality was that Grant knew he was in it for the long haul with the right strategy to end the War. 



 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 03:50 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
150th Post
connyankee
Member


Joined: Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location: Colchester, Connecticut USA
Posts: 83
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

That's right, ashbel.  I think it's time for me to take a week or so and do the Wilderness-to-Petersburg tour again.  I'm getting the itch again.  Just north of Richmond is always a problem because it is so cluttered with modern development.  I haven't been to Yellow Tavern site yet for that reason, having got lost in there one time.

One time, I was sitting at the Mule Shoe reading a chapter out of a book.  Park Ranger comes along and I say, "Yep, - it doesn't get much better than this. It's the ultimate classroom."  He says, "Yep" and moves along.  Another time, I went very early in the morning and there was a low fog about.  It gave me the creeps.   Monuments and even trees took on a rather ghostly appearance. Same thing at Cold Harbor.  Walking the little trail toward the reb's line, I'm sort of looking behind every tree and anticipating at any second to start seeing the slouch hats pop up from the trenches.  Just a few musings - it is a lot of fun and informative too.  As long as I can come away each time after learning something new, I'll continue to go back.

:)

 



 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 11:16 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
151st Post
JoanieReb
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 24th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 620
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Thanks truly for pointing out the difference between "tactics" and "strategy", Ashbel.

I genuinely appreciate this sort of thing.  I admittedly have a problem with military terminalogy, and it sometimes keeps me from posting, seriously.  I appreciate it when someone corrects me. 

When I was writing earlier, I couldn't think of the term I wanted for Grant's sending his men in; I'm pretty sure it was "assaults"; but my mind went blank.  So I just said "waves".  And, since no pointed out the problem, I (wrongly) stuck with it!  If I get all hung up on a word and don't have a book nearby, I either throw in whatever and hope for the best - which, quite seriously, is being corrected when called for;  or else I save the post for later and forget to post it.

There's a thread I keep wanting to start, but it is full of military terms, and I know I'm gonna have to spend at least 20 minutes making sure I've got the right ones.

Pvt Clewell has been kind enough to PM me here and there and ask for clarification when I goof - think it's his way of kindly letting me know I got it wrong.  But I don't mind - and do appreciate it - when someone points it out to me on the board!  That way, other people can learn from it, too rather than thinking that my mistakes are acceptable.

 

Last edited on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 12:54 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Sun Feb 17th, 2008 12:24 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
152nd Post
PvtClewell
Member


Joined: Wed Jun 13th, 2007
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 420
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Connyankee,

I feel your pain about Yellow Tavern. About 10 years ago, several of us got directions to Yellow Tavern from the NPS in Richmond. We followed a serious maze through a residential district that took about a half-hour to find. You really have to be on a mission to find it. We finally found the monument — an obelisk about 15 feet high surrounded by a wrought-iron fence — but it was across the street from a condo complex.

At the time we saw it, the site wasn't very well maintained. Grass and weeds were overgrown and it looked neglected. One of the members of our roundtable wrote a letter to the local chapter of the UDC to see if something could be done. Maybe it helped. The pictures here were taken last year and it seems the place is really cleaned up since we've been there. What the pictures don't show is the nearby encroachment.


http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=3713



 Posted: Sun Feb 17th, 2008 10:28 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
153rd Post
ashbel
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 25th, 2008
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 165
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Joanie

Sorry if my post sounded like I was trying to correct you.  It was not the intent.  I was just trying to explain the reason why I think Grant was able to send his men into battle at Cold Harbor and remain behind the lines smoking cigars and whittling wood.  In his heart he knew he had to pay the price for ending the war. 

Even he admitted later that he had used bad tactics.  And he regretted the attack at Cold Harbor as much as anything during the war. (see his Memoirs)

Besides I am the last person on this Board that should be correcting anyone.  I am just here to learn and throw my two cents in from time to time.  I am an amateur historian and thankful to have found such a treasure trove of good information.



 Posted: Mon Feb 18th, 2008 07:02 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
154th Post
JoanieReb
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 24th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 620
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

:)Ashbel - and everyone out there - please!!!!!  correct me when I make a goof!  I didn't mean for the word "correction" to come out negatively.  I guess what I should have said was, please continue to educate me.  I am SO TIRED of making mistakes in terminology - this is how I learn, and thus, build confidence.  I stay out of a lot of live, face-to-face conversations on the CW because I just know I'm gonna use my words wrong...and, I figure, it is better to let people think you are an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.....;)

Learning Good!:):):D:D

Also, Ashbel, you can be as modest as you want, but you are certainly (Like Emma Peel - anyone remember The Avengers?)  a talented amateur.  Your earlier comment on Gaines Mill and Cold Harbor was worth its weight in gold, as far as I'm concerned.

Now, Y'All - I'm getting over my flu, should be good to go in a couple days.  Is the map thing worth following, or not?

Hee-hee:  We should organize a CWi field-trip to Spotsylvania/Cold Harbor.  Most people shouldn't have to drive more than a day or two to get there....:shock:;)

Last edited on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 07:12 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Mon Feb 18th, 2008 10:41 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
155th Post
ashbel
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jan 25th, 2008
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 165
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Joannie
It seems to me all of us are still learning. 

I am just glad to be able to find people who know what Cold Harbor is.  Most of the people I talk to every day probably think it is a fishing village in Alaska.



 Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 04:35 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
156th Post
connyankee
Member


Joined: Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location: Colchester, Connecticut USA
Posts: 83
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Just finished reading a great new book, "Trench Warfare under Grant & Lee:  Field Fortifications in the Overland Campaign," by Earl J. Hess.  It covers eveything in the campaign from the Wilderness to Cold Harbor and Bermuda Hundred with the focus on engineering.  Contains a number of good diagrams of earth and log fortifications used during the campaign based on field studies plus a number of photographs of same that I don't recall seeing before.

I thought this book was nicely done.

Regards. connyankee



 Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 02:44 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
157th Post
JoanieReb
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 24th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 620
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Y' know,

Once before we had a really good thread going on here at CWi, and it crossed my mind, it would be pretty neat if those of us who were into the discussion picked out one book together on the subject to read and discuss.

I am wondering, could this happen here?  The Wilderness is so intense and exciting, but not discussed that much.  We all care about it, and come for differing viewpoints, and like to talk about it.

Would it work to pick out one book for us all to get, and maybe discuss different chapters during a certain time period? 

Would anyone be interested?

Joanie



 Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 03:28 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
158th Post
HankC
Member


Joined: Tue Sep 6th, 2005
Location:  
Posts: 517
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Joanie,

check

http://www.civilwarinteractive.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=1220&forum_id=6



 Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 03:59 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
159th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

HankC:

Have been out of the loop, but this time I have the book Allegiance, and have read it.

Are you going to join the next wave! Get 'er done.

ole



 Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:07 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
160th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Joanie:

The book discussion group meets on Sunday night. I see no impediment to your reserserving a time to discuss a book of your choice on that site. Check out the site. It's frequently active and the book discussion is valuable. I often sit in and just read the interaction -- even when the book doesn't have my interest.

Go to Hank's link. Sometimes it's nice just to chat.

ole



 Current time is 09:43 amPage:  First Page Previous Page  ...  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Next Page Last Page  
Top




UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.4469 seconds (10% database + 90% PHP). 25 queries executed.