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| Where is God in all this? | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 02:30 pm |
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21st Post |
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Fuller E Pluribus Unum 
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Interesting conversation. I would have to say no, that the victims don't necessarily go to the opposite place the shooter went. Yin and Yang treatment? They had a life full of choices they made before they died and will be judged just like everyone else. I do believe that there is a special place for people who died while trying to save the life of another and also children who died when they were too young to really make choices. Just my opinion.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 05:26 pm |
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22nd Post |
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David White Member 
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Rob:Considering free will, how free is my will if my choice to reject God means that I will go to hell? Sorry, I'm not following you here, what you describe is exactly what free will is. Everyday we are faced with situations where we either accept God's desires or reject them-- that is what free will is all about. Rejecting God in total is free will pegged on the negative side. Accepting his desires in total is pegged on the other side. Most of us fall in the middle somewhere. I know the argument....if I choose to break the law and get caught, there are consequences to that action. I have free will as to whether or not I will break the law. But what if I don't get caught? The free will argument, at least in the terms of consequences, doesn't apply. With an omniscient God, what you propose is not possible you will always be "caught." Choosing to reject God, if free will is truly free, would mean that I would not be able to partake in whatever there might be to partake in when I die, but it shouldn't mean that my soul will forever be condemned to some "fire and brimstone" torture simply because I can't live up to something that no human being supposedly can. One human did live up to perfection. But true, the rest of us even the most sainted, have not lived up to perfection. Perfection isn't what God calls us to. He calls us to be faithful servants. I hope we will find that He is a forgiving God who will "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." God loves us more than He wants to smack us down with fire and brimstone. He will forgive us of our many wrongs, if we only ask it of Him. If God is this all powerful being, can my skepticism really hurt him that much? You seem to be describing an all non-caring God, not an all powerful one. I believe God cares about each of us and rejection by just one of us matters to Him. I theorize that He understands the human condition enough to understand all of our skepticism and I also believe an all loving God/parent is going to be affected by the ultimate rejection by their child. However, in God's case, that rejection in no way affects His ultimate power. My child may reject me and disappoint me but it in no way diminishes my power to send them to bed early. Power is not always diminished by disappointment in humans, let alone God. Plus, let's face it. If there is a final judgment, and if Christianity is the one true path, there will be a lot of good and decent people who never massacred a bunch of innocent people and did all they could to make the world a better place who will end up writhing in agony because they don't believe in a bunch of contradictory and mythological stories. Some may agree that Christianity is the only path but I don't believe an all-loving God will penalize people who never had an opportunity to hear the Christian message. For them, there is a way to God's presence after death without adopting a Christian lifestyle. I know many fundamentalists may disagree with that statement but it doesn't match up with the all-loving God I see in the Bible. He knows the heart of all of us and will reward those with a good heart, no matter their religion or lack thereof. Finally, if the shooter, whose actions were truly evil, is going to hell, does that mean the victims, who were truly innocent, will go to heaven, even if they were non-believers? I don't pretend to know all of God's will, only what He has revealed to me in the Bible. The shooter had some mental problems, perhaps God will save him due to his not acting through his free will and condemn all the victims for various transgressions they committed in their lives through their free will to choose sin. Only God and to an extent ourselves are privy to our true thoughts, words and deeds. Those who accept God will choose to live in his prescence for eternity, those who reject it, will have chosen to live outside his prescence for eternity.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 05:27 pm |
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23rd Post |
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David White Member
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I used my free will to double post, drat! Last edited on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 05:30 pm by David White |
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 07:13 pm |
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24th Post |
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younglobo Member 
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Booklover wrote ..."Philip Yancy who once wrote that to tell someone who has no faith to just have faith is the cruelest and least helpful thing a person can say." This was certainly not my intention , having faith to me is like having the faith of a child Jesus speaks of this Kind of faith in Matt 11:20-30. Little children would never turn thier backs on thier parents no matter how cruel the parent is , the child still loves them , I can spank my lil one for doing wrong, yes lil one crys and gets mad for a little while but gets over it and minutes later has for gotten because he loves me that much,because i am here father. You quote Philip Yancy .. I know of a Christian Author Philip Yancey Author of the book "Where is God When it Hurts" I quote from Page 229 (if you have not read this book my mother showed it too me she lost 2 babies at birth and this book helped here walk with God, i would encourage you to do so) "For whatever reason God chose to make man as he is----limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death---He had the honesty and courage to take His own medicine . Whatever game He is playing with his creation , he has kept His own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from man that he has not extracted from himself. He has Himself gone through the whole of human experience, from the trivial irritations of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation,defeat, despair , and death. When He was a man, he played the man. He was born in poverty and died in disgrace and thought it well worthwhile. The fact that Jesus came to earth where he suffered and died does not remove pain from our lives . But it does show that God did not sit idly by and watch us suffer in isolation. He became one of us. Thus in Jesus , God give us an up-close and personal look at his response to human suffering. All our questions about God and suffering should,in fact , be filtered through what we know about Jesus." END QUOTE How did God on earth respond to pain? When he met someone in pain he didnt say suck it up , Endure , live with it. When Jesus friend Lazarus died he wept , very often he healed when asked , sometimes breaking rules and customs of his day. The pattern of jesus reponses would convince us that God is not a God who enjoys seeing us suffer. I dont think you can ever intellectually figure God out enough that you will say "God you have proven to me you exsist by looking at it intellectually". Believing in God is not like a CSI episode where all the facts are going to lead you to believe in him, God did leave us clues in the bible to point out he is who he says he is (Jesus being who he said he wasGod in the flesh) but to truly believe in God is a heart issue not a head issue and until you can shut down your head enough to believe your heart and give it to God you are at a stand still. Sorry for the long post Joe and all. Book I think in your original question you are wrestling with in realtionship with God and your walk with him , although I think you are heartfeltly concerned for Joe's family and others involved in this tragedy. Hope I helped and did not cause more harm. Last edited on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 07:36 pm by younglobo |
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 07:43 pm |
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25th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member 
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Where was God?....God is everywhere; in some, He is in our hearts....in others, He is knocking on your door..... Where was God at NIU??....He let 5 people die????......He also lets MANY others live, however, I do not see that even being considered. Praise God for the survivors, and may the survivors, victims and victims' families see the Light. May some good and peace come from this tragedy, may someone see with open eyes when they did not see before...... That's where God is..... Where was God when my mother was dying of cancer??.....He was holding her hand....He was whispering to my heart "You shall see your mother again"...He is in the miricle of my 6 year old son.... Where is God??.....He's in the beauty of a sunset on a wonderful summer day....He's in the love the our wives, children and families give us.....He's in the voice of a robin that sings when the spring is new..... Yes, tragic things happen and we don't know the reason why....we can never know....Those things are not for us to know. When death strikes our families, we must give God thanks for a life that touched us, not curse Him for taking it away....Anyone that understands the love from God and the love from our families and freinds, will understand what it means to thank God for a loved one's life; not curse him. Well, I'm no preacher and I don't know as much as I should; but I do know this: I have a simple faith and that faith is based on trust in God.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 08:00 pm |
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26th Post |
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ashbel Member
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Albert Beautifully said. Thanks.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 08:04 pm |
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27th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member
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Thank you, ashbel!!
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 08:16 pm |
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28th Post |
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younglobo Member
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Albert .. I am trying to be so intelligent and find the right words and you K.I.S.S. and blow me outta the water . Not that I'm Complainin . Amen AMEN
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 08:21 pm |
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29th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member
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Younglobo, Like I said, I'm just a simple man.....Besides, those words came to me....I didn't have to look for'em....hmmmm....Wonder who put them there??? Thanks!!
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 08:27 pm |
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30th Post |
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booklover Member 
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Younglobo, First, I wasn't intending to mean that you specifically were causing any harm to me by your statement. If I gave you that impression, I apologize. My quotation of Yancey (should always check my spelling before posting) was meant to suggest that some people flippantly suggest that if only one had faith, all will make sense, even if imperfect. Again, not suggesting you were flippant, but to me it's like saying if only you choose not to scream in pain when you hit your thumb with a hammer, then it won't hurt. And I will agree with you that it is near impossible to figure out God by using the intellect, which is why I doubt I will ever wear the title "Christian" because to me intellect is far greater and more powerful a force than emotion, which I think religion is based on, although some will obviously disagree. David, my point regarding free will is that it isn't free if by choosing the "wrong" path my soul is damned to hell forever. Not every choice a person makes results in a condemnation or punishment, in fact very few do. While many choices bring with them some consequence, generally it isn't of such an all-consuming nature. Some choices we make where the concept of free will is in play have absolutely no consequences whatsoever. Why should this one be any different? No one in their right mind would choose to burn forever in hell (or whatever incarnation it might take) but by nature many people have a skeptical and inquisitive bent. Punishing someone for exercising the intellect that a supposed God gave to them seems to me arbitrary and capricious. As to your comment about the one true path, you are in a distinct minority from every Christian I have ever spoken to (and I mean that literally). One of the main reasons I reject organized religion stems from that very prejudice. If you don't agree with it, then I applaud you for your open-mindedness. Albert, to me the whole argument boils down to your first paragraph. What made those who lived more valuable than the five who died? If someone told me that my son or daughter was spared because God took favor on him, it would make me angry because that person would be saying that someone else's son or daughter wasn't so favored. Faith is a very personal thing, but then again so is skepticism. For me it all boils down to this--if I have to believe in God simply because not doing so is going to send me to an eternal punishment, I'll take my chances that it won't happen. I'm willing to accept the flip side of Pascal's wager. As I like quotes, here is one that makes perfect sense to me: "Now if there is a god, and he is just, he would not send kind atheists to hell only because they can't believe in him. A just god judges people for who they are, not for what their minds tell them is likely to be true or not. Therefore a just god would still save atheists if they were good people. Like someone once said, "I would love to go to hell and meet people such as Einstein, Darwin, Russell and Voltaire." Is it really likely that these people were sent to hell, only because their great minds didn't find any evidence of the Christian god? In that case the word "just" is not applicable to god, and such a god is not even worth worshipping. To worship such a god would be like worshiping your worst enemy because you were afraid of his revenge if you didn't submit to his power." While I respect each and every one of you and your views, my general experience with religion has been such that it has hindered the advancement of society rather than progressed it. Best Rob Last edited on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 08:40 pm by booklover |
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 08:37 pm |
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31st Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member
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I think I will get out of this discussion...... But first, I never implied that one person was "favored" over another...my appologies if that is how it was interpreted. Regarding why some lived and others didn't, I defer to a statement in my original post: "Yes, tragic things happen and we don't know the reason why....we can never know....Those things are not for us to know. When death strikes our families, we must give God thanks for a life that touched us, not curse Him for taking it away...." I think that sums up best what I was trying to say. I hope, in some small way, I've begun to answer your question rather than debate the answer.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 08:51 pm |
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32nd Post |
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booklover Member
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Albert, as always, I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks. Best Rob
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 09:01 pm |
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33rd Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member
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Booklover, You're welcome! I don't think I can answer all of your questions, but my hope is that my answers will help you find that which you may seek and lead you where you need to be, wherever that place is for you. I'm not saying I'm right about everything, I'm just conveying how my religion and faith allow me to see things from a different perspective. I'd like to say I think religion is a beautiful thing that DID help society, despite the Spanish Inquisition, the debacle with the Branch Davidians, Jonestown, Muslim suicide bombers, etc.....Getting past the fanatics that give religion a bad name is perhaps the first step in seeing the hope that a faith in God gives us. I hope you do find answers, but don't expect all your questions to be answered....that's the difficult and frustrating thing to accept. Perhaps it's not getting the definitive answers that make us stronger, but rather the quest for those answers.....
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 09:01 pm |
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34th Post |
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ashbel Member
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Rob In my view good people go to Heaven.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 11:26 pm |
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35th Post |
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Doc C Member 
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Ashbel Please define "good people". Republicans, Democrats, those supporting Pro -Iraqui War, Anti-Iraqui War, Southeners, Northerners, Protestants, Catholics, Atheists, Budhists, Pro-lifers, Pro-Choisers, etc. Doc C
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 12:35 am |
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36th Post |
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Dixie Girl Southern Belle 
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believers
____________________ War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson |
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 12:42 am |
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37th Post |
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Doc C Member
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Question - a bad believer will go to heaven whereas a good non-believer won't??? Had this discussion a while back with my brothers baptist preacher father in law. IMHO, just believing doesn't insure you an entrance to the here after, but as Jesus taught us good deeds and how we treat our fellow human beings does, irregardless of your religious beliefs - christian, budhist, hindu, muslem. Just my typical ranting. Doc C
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 12:51 am |
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38th Post |
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Dixie Girl Southern Belle
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yes thats the way it is. you believe you go to heaven if ya dont well then you go to h***. you can do all the good deads and it wont get you into heaven. it will make you look better on judgement day but you have to give your soul to the Lord and let him lead your life. thats how you get into heaven.
____________________ War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson |
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 12:56 am |
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39th Post |
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Doc C Member
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Very Calvenistic. Doc C
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 12:59 am |
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40th Post |
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Dixie Girl Southern Belle
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WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
____________________ War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson |
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