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 Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 02:14 am
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Dixie Girl
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i know this might offend some people but i think this is something that needs to be thought about.

Why do we celebrate Martin Luther King Jr. day and not have a day to celebrate the American Indians? it does not seem right that we only celebrate the African Americans and not the American Indians. The Indians suffered just as much and more than African Americans did and yet they are always looked down upon as savage beasts.

These people suffered from the hand of the white man but yet i feel that the first Americans probably would not have made it without the help of the Indians. The showed them how to hunt, fish, and showed them how every part of a amimal had a use and a purpose.

What most people dont think about though is that the Indians were a big part in the forming of the United States. They fought in several wars to try to protect they land that was rightfully theirs and their families. Then the white man sent in soldiers to remove them from where they lived just like they were no better that the mud on their boots.

They suffered through the Trail of Tears and the Indian Removal Act of 1830. That was treatment that they should not have had to endure but they did anyway. Even after all that they fought in the Civil War. That was pointless bloodshed on their half but they thought that by taking a side they could better life for themselves and their famlies.

Personally i think they deserve a day of respect and rememberance. They deserve to be recognized for all the pain, suffering and death that came upon them just like the African Americans get. The American Indians are just as important to history as anybody else and its about time our Native American Ancestors get the respect and rememberance they deserve.



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War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


 Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 04:26 am
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susansweet
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According to several website I just checked Native American Day is the 4th Friday in September  Here in California they have events for Students and Teachers at various places around the state to teach them about the Native Americans .

Susan

http://www.nativeamericanday.com/   many other western states celebrate the same day

 



 Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 06:04 pm
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Dixie Girl
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we dont.as far as i know nobody out here has even heard of it. that could just be a thing out west sinse there does seem to be more Indians out there than there is where i live.



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War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


 Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 09:59 am
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A very good post Dixie. I find it's far too easy to overlook the Native Americans when looking at the Civil War. I skimmed through Hauptmann's 'Between two fires' but felt that I couldn't understand it without knowing about the antebellum history as far back as Columbus. Do you know of a good overview or place to start?

When I was in DC I visited the Smithsonian’s National Museum of the American Indian - it was well worth a visit.



 Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 03:38 pm
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Kernow .  A book I really liked is  Indian Givers : How the Indians of the Americans transformed the world by Jack Weatherford.  I also have a Encyclopedia type book on the different tribes and a book of Native American Folklore.  I just realized I do not have a book on the history of the Native American Tribes in relationship to the Europeans in America. 

Most of my books on Native Americans are individual tribes or biographies of certain Individuals.  These are also Western Tribes such as Navajo, Lakota, Hopi , Apache. Most are also post Civil War personalities such as Crazy Horse even more modern Leonard Peltier. 

I think I do have one small volume on Native American history I got on sale at the Autry Museum in Los Angeles but can't recall the name of the book or author. 

The book Between Two Fires is an outstanding book on the Native America's part of the Civil War . 

Read also the biography of Grant's Staff officer Ely Parker . 

It's funny I started to think of books to tell you and realized most of my books on the subject are children's books as for two years I taught a unit to second graders on Native Americans .  I also taught a summer school enrichment program to 2-3 graders on Native American Tribes.  Both units were survey courses taking a representive tribe from each region of the country .  Giving the kids some background history then doing some activity based on the tribe.  False Face Mask from the Iroquois to Button Blankets (mini ones ) of the Tlingit of Pacific Northwest. 

The kids also read or were read  many Native American tales . 

I was trying to make this unit more than the paperbag vest and warbonnets and face paintinf of "warpaint"  that many primary classes  tend to fall into . 

I do still have the thick notebook I filled with articles and ideas from various teaching material I researched for the unit.  It is gathering dust I am sure since I retired.

Geeze Kernow now you have me thinking I need to get a one volume history of the Native American culture to read.  Sooo many books so little time.

Susan



 Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 05:02 pm
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Dixie Girl
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well i googled Confederate and Union Indians. I have also looked up several different booksellers and typed in Confederate and Union Indians and you can get several lists of books off of there.



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War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


 Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 06:54 pm
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Much appreciated.

I'm afraid I don't really have much of an opinion on the desirability or otherwise of a special day for remembrance. Are issues surrounding Native Americans a part of every day discourse in the way that the issues of civil rights era still haven't passed away? Or would the purpose of the day be to bring them to the forefront?



 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 02:45 am
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Dixie Girl
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no there not a part of everyday issues but they should be. the purpose would be to bring them to the forefront and show the narrow minded people of they world that they are NOT savage beasts like everyone concludes them to be and show that they did what they did so they could save their famlies.



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War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 04:30 am
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Not old enought to remember the American Indian Movement huh?  That was Civil Rights for the Indian.  Google it .  Check out the name Leonard Peltier and the Pine Ridge Reservation .  Look up Russell Means.  Native Americans have gained many rights in the last 40 years.   Casinos have changed some tribes for the postive with money for many services for their people.  There is much more to to be done.  Many reservations are still very very poor.  Some still live on the reservations, others have moved to the city and "blended in ".  

Dixie says "purpose would be to bring them to the forefront and show the narrow minded people of they world that they are NOT savage beasts like everyone concludes them to be and show that they did what they did so they could save their famlies."


Who is the eveyone you are talking about .  This sentence does not make sense I do not understand what you are saying .  The second half of the sentence about they did what they did .  There were as many reasons atrocities were done on both sides.   This is an issue we cannot judge from 21st century mindset.  Manifest Destiny played into it.  Many tribes committed atrocities on each other before the Europeans even appeared on the scene.    An interesting book to read is Kit Carson and the Indians, By Thomas Dunlay.

Susan



You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 05:06 pm
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Bama thank you .  I swear it is a simple truth but one that took me years to realize. 

I remember sitting on the wall surrounding the graves of the Mountain Meadow Massacre  in Utah.  I looked at the surrounding area and thought about the time period 1857 in Utah.  I said to the friend I was with, "you know you can't really balme the killers for what they did."  She went off screaming at me "Murder is Murder".   I said , "Sitting here now in the 20th Century you can not imagine what it must have been like to this group of people who had moved west to practice their religion and now were being invaded again."   Not the best way to end of a visit to an old friend . 

Reading the book Kit Carson and the Indians also has added to my belief . 

Susan



 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 05:39 pm
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Dixie Girl
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lots of people.( please note that i called the everyone the narrow minded people.) But most who dont understand them or the Native American culture. I know lots of people have studied the Native Americans, but I dont think that they really get just how bad they were treated. I think if more people would research their families they would find that they are related to the Native Americans and then they might understand better. I have Cherokee Ancestors on both sides of my family. Because of this I have spent lots of time researching Indians could better understand them. I have read about how Indians were treated like crap and it really makes me mad that no one seems to care one way or another. Maybe its just me but I think that they deserve just as much respect and rememberance as anyone else.

Last edited on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 01:14 am by Dixie Girl



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War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 05:59 pm
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"Lots of people" please note that i called the everyone the narrow minded people

Well that makes no sense at all.  It is difficult to read what you write as so many words are misspelled.  The grammar and puncuation is lacking .  Could you please proof read before you post.

Most people who have Native American ancestors seem to have Cherokee blood as the Cherokees were one of the tribes that interacted with the Europeans early on.  I have both Cherokee and Choctaw ancestors in my family.  I also have many ancestors who came from different parks of the UK.   So what.  I am a mixture of mnay cultures.  I have a father whose family goes back to the 1600's in Roxbury Mass.  I have a mother whose family goes back to the 1700's in South Carolina, A Patriot of Kings Mountain even.  So what.  None of them are me today.  I can only take credit for what I did and do in my life.  I refuse to judge what any of them did as they moved futher and futher into the wilderness to make a life and living for their family.  I am sure some of them had encounters with native tribres.  I know my mother's family intermarried.  My grandmother was raised in Indian Territory which is now part of Oklahoma. 

I am not sure what you want people to do .  I have friends that work on the reservations in Arizona for years.  Gee I also know friends that contribute quite a bit of money to the reservations since they spend so much time at Indian Casinos. 

Yes there is extreme poverty on some reservations.  Others are quite wealthy.  We cannot lump all tribes into one big "INDIAN" label.   It is much like calling all others Europeans  

Keep researching .  Some people on here have been doing research on topics for 30, 40 years and still don't have all the answers.  I know I sure don't.  I have read books, I have visited reservations , I have attended events such as powwows, I have visited cultural museums.  I have visited other historical sites.  Just when I think I understand what happened back in the day.  I find something new to change my opinion or view of a subject.  The day I die I will stop researching . 

Susan



 Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 01:19 am
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Dixie Girl
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there i fixed my last post ya happy now? first let me say that im 14 and i really dont care if stuff is spelled right or not.

next let me say that i wash my hands of this topic cause the next post i make on this subject will probably get me kicked off this message board.



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War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


 Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 05:31 am
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Be cool, dixie girl. You are in the presence of a whole bunch of old folks who want only that you get set off on the right foot. And you might recognize that there are a few hundred of them who have been there and done that.

We all remember what it was like to be 14.  And we all remember the mistakes we made. And we all stumble over each other to give advice. And we all know that you have to make your own misstpeps. That is the essence of learning. But our hearts are in the right place.

ole



 Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 05:40 am
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Dixie , first of all, I have been a teacher for 35 years.  Spelling counts.  I know that Andrew Jackson said "it's a damn poor man who can only spell a word one way." But in this day and age with spell check it is important to spell words correctly and be able to write .  You have talked about being a historian in the future.  Wait til you see your first paper covered with edits and marks for spelling and other mistakes. 

As to making me happy ?  I could care less.  I just didn't understand your arguement as I could not understand what you were saying . 

Ole has posted a good reply to you .  It would be good to listen to him.  He is a wise man. 

Susan



 Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 05:43 am
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And, from the peanut gallery: Has anyone considered what this country might be if the Indian (no apology for not saying Native American) had not been driven into reservations? Or subjugated?

It is not a pleasant thing to contemplate that we'd still have huge herds of buffalo roaming the range with tribes of aborigines still roaming the central plains.

What they were is nice to think about. What they have been reduced to is not so nice to think about. And I speak here only about the Plains Indians. But I don't see an alternative. If anyone has one, I'd be glad to consider it.

ole



 Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 05:55 am
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susansweet
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Exactly what I was trying to say Ole. With Manifest Destiny what other alternative was there.  It is sad that the events happened on both sides. Some of the events that happened to whites also happened to other tribes .  The Black Feet were noted for their fierce treatment of other tribes. 

Susan



 Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 12:56 pm
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A very common misconception is that all Indians were of one mindset: innocent hunter gatherer bunny huggers. Hollywood has gone a long way inshaping those misconceptions. In fact I can think of very few that come anywhere near getting it right. Dances w/ Wolves was probably as close as you can get w/ Hollyweird and NEVER watch that move w/ someone who knows the language as they'll be rolling in the aisles. Thunderheart is probably the best most accurate look at a Reservation I've ever seen. There are a couple others but they are very few and far between.

The reality is anything but the innocent bunny hugger image. There were literally hundred of different tribes, some were peaceful... they quickly became extinct thousands of years before the white man showed up. To understand the Native American culture one has to get a look into the nomadic culture of people used to near perpetual warfare. Tribes like the Apache, Commanche, Kiowa, Lakota, Cheyenne etc were VERY warlike arguably among the finest warriors in history. Apache children learned how to fight from the time they could first walk and the children lietened to war stories from the time they could listen and understand what was being said. The Lakota child was riding a horse before he could walk and his first toy was usually a childs bow.

Not something your average white moving west was ready to deal with. It was a no quarter given and none asked kind of conflict w/ neither side being innocent. Most of the plains tribes destroyed an enemy body because of their belief that they would be meeting them again in the afterlife and didn't wish to face one whole. The Apache believed completely in testing an enemy's bravery and courage... which is why they were so adept at torture. For both tribes a man who proved his bravery could be guaranteed respect. The Lakota would leave his body untouched in the hope that thy would meet the man in the afterlife. The Apache... a stoic man would receive their respect and honor to the point of being released or the highest honor; adoption. Things not likely to be understood by the average white man on the plains or in the desert.

The Native Americans are a fascinating study, no one book can hope to encompass them all. It takes books on individual tribes to do it right and not muck things up. Years ago I was given a book that "Is a great primer on the Indian" it lumped the Crow and Lakota together... ummm BAD idea. If you want a fight even today call a Lakota a Crow.

It's ironic to me that the best thing I can think of to tell someone to read in order to garner a basic understanding of the Native American is pretty much any Louis Lamour western.

Susan I know there are some spelling & syntax errors, please don't wack me w/ the ruler. I'm sorry.



 Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 12:59 pm
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I should stress, my knowledge of the Native American is to the nomadic cultures of the Plains and the Apache and some other tribes of the SW. I know almost nothing of the less nomadic tribes. Ironic that when somone mentions Indian they are almost invariably talking about the plains tribes ot the Apache... because that is what Hollywood taught them. And I'm as guilty as the next person.



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