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 Posted: Thu Aug 17th, 2006 04:03 am
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James Longstreet
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Alright, this might sound trivial to some, but I am currently obsessed with this.  The Southern states.  Which should be considered Southern?  Or, which states should be considered "Deep South" states?  We all know the eleven Confederate states, but culture has changed a lot since then(due to Yankee immigration, ect)  I thought, hey, maybe some outside opinion on this subject would be good.  So, which states should be considered "Southern", and what is the definition of Deep South states?(By culture, not by geography)

Last edited on Thu Aug 17th, 2006 04:04 am by James Longstreet



 Posted: Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 07:03 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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In my opinion, the "South" today remains the 11 states that secceeded.

Based on geography, those states certainly are southern. I would consider Missouri more mid-western than southern, and any state west of Texas as western. Kentucky is north of the Mason Dixon line, but so is Virginia........So, where does Kentucky fit in??.....West Virginia, in my opinion, is not southern, as they chose to identify with northern (Federal) values; thus removing geography from the equation.

Based on culture, I would still suggest the original 11 states, and excluding West Virginia, again, because they chose to identify with a "different" culture. I don't think Kentucky or Missouri are either southern or northern, but more of a mix; given the proximity of their northern borders and cultural "spill-over" from those borders which would keep them from being entirely "southern" in culture.

Albert Sailhorst, Scott's Battery



 Posted: Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 09:41 pm
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James Longstreet
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Thanks for the response.  I do agree to some extent that Kentucky and Missouri are somewhat of a mix in culture.  I have a friend from Kentucky, and he is the most pro-Southern redneck I have ever met, and he'd be the first to tell you, so I guess that influences my opinion.  I think the Deep South starts around Memphis or Jonesborough, Arkansas, with its western boundary being the Ouachita(spelling?) Mountains.

Casey



 Posted: Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 09:49 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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I've never understood the difference between Deep South anyway! When I lived in Jackson, TN (between Memphis and Nashville) the Jackson TV news and Memphis TV news both claimed to be in the "Mid-South". Maybe everything below Tennessee is Deep South? So, if we have a Mid and Deep, what's on top???...heeheee....

Albert Sailhorst, Scott's Battery



 Posted: Wed Aug 23rd, 2006 12:08 am
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James Longstreet
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Haha, interesting point.  But I am pretty sure my area of the United States is Southern in culture.  When talking about the Civil War in U.S. History class it's always "them/those Yankees" versus "us".  I mean, I didnt know that the South didn't win the war until I was about 12 years old; and it was around 10 years old I realized the people on T.V. "talked funny."  I was one ignorant little boy.  Plus, our school rival is "The Rebels" and Dixie is played and Confederate flags are waved everytime a Rebel scores a touchdown against us.  Dixie is played a lot...



 Posted: Wed Aug 23rd, 2006 12:34 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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When I lived in Tennessee, I also noticed a "difference" between Southernors and Yankees. To be an outsider, it is difficult to break into the "inner circle" of SOuthern culture. I once read somewhere a theory on that: It's because, in the South, the war is personal. For example, it was Yankees that burned great-grampa's house and barn and killed great Uncle Bill....the war was brought "home" so the animosity is felt personally. I don't think northerners will ever truely understand the "nationalism" felt by Southernoers". You don't see that kind of thing distinguished between an easterner and westerner anymore.....Like Shelby Foote said, the Civil War defined this nation....

Albert Sailhorst, Scott's Battery



 Posted: Wed Aug 23rd, 2006 07:18 pm
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HankC
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Here are nice groupings...

Upper South: MD KY MO (border states, unseceded)

Mid-South: VA NC TN AR (seceded after Ft Sumter)

Deep South: SC GA FL AL MS LA TX (seceded before Ft Sumter)



 Posted: Thu Aug 24th, 2006 02:45 am
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Basecat
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HankC wrote: Here are nice groupings...

Upper South: MD KY MO (border states, unseceded)

Mid-South: VA NC TN AR (seceded after Ft Sumter)

Deep South: SC GA FL AL MS LA TX (seceded before Ft Sumter)


Hank,

LOL...Will add Money Grubbing South: NY and NJ.  Both states made a lot of money trading with their Southern bretheren prior to the war, and hated to see that discontinued.

Hope all is well.

Regards from the Garden State,

Basecat



 Posted: Thu Aug 24th, 2006 10:03 pm
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James Longstreet
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I agree with Albert on that.  The Yankees killed my great, great, great grandpappy.



 Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 04:05 pm
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Widow
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Howdy from NoVa, and a very late reply to Albert Sailhorst's post on 22 Aug 06.


Kentucky is north of the Mason Dixon line, but so is Virginia.


Actually, the Mason-Dixon line marks the border between Pennsylvania and Maryland.  Maryland and Virginia are SOUTH of the line.  So is Kentucky.  The line was surveyed and established long before the Civil War.

Northern Virginia can be loosely defined as the six counties north of the Rappahannock River and east of the Blue Ridge Mtns.:
  • Loudoun (Leesburg)
  • Fauquier (Warrenton)
  • Prince William (Manassas)
  • Stafford (Stafford)
  • Arlington
  • Fairfax
Arlington and Fairfax Counties don't have county seats.  Those place names are familiar to anyone who's read about the Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of the Potomac.

These six counties are the inner and outer Virginia suburbs of Washington, with all the growth, development, traffic, and other features of 21st-century life.  Many folks commute from farther away, such as Front Royal, Harpers Ferry, Fredericksburg, etc.

NoVa has lots of really wealthy people.  Somebody calculated that if these six counties seceded from the RoVa (Rest of Virginia), the new state would be the wealthiest in the nation, measured by income per household.  Loudoun County recently became the wealthiest of all counties, bumping Fairfax County down to second.  Me, I live in the poor section of Oakton here in Fairfax County.  All that wealth means big tax revenues going to Richmond.

Culturally, NoVa is so different from RoVa that maybe NoVa could be defined as "Not Virginia."  People come from all over the world to live here.  We have a large number of the foreign diplomatic community here.  Immigrants, students, scientists and other technical professions come here to live either temporarily or permanently.  Of course people from all states live in this area too.  Many people choose to live here after retirement from the military or Federal government.  This fluctuating mix of non-Virginians means either enrichment or contamination, depending on your view.

On the other hand, we have streets and schools named after famous Confederates, and none after famous Federals.  Let's see:  Jefferson Davis Highway, Lee Highway, Lee-Jackson Highway, Pickett Road, JEB Stuart High School, etc.

I've lived in Fairfax County since 1965 but have no deeply embedded sense of loyalty to the Old Dominion or to any other state.  I love the beauty of my adopted state, I've sunk my roots here, and I don't want to live anywhere else.  But I don't think of myself as a Virginian.  I'm a Wyoming native, a Virginia resident, and a proud American.

This is a good topic.  Patty

Last edited on Fri Nov 10th, 2006 04:20 pm by Widow



 Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 04:29 pm
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Widow
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Here I am with a late reply to Ol' Pete Longstreet's question on 17 Aug 06 about what is "the South."  This may amuse you.

Twenty years ago, my brother lived in San Antonio.  His wife, Beverly, is from Port Angeles, Washington, a little fishing town on the coast of Puget Sound.  One day she and some neighbors chatted about what is a Yankee.

Beverly said that to her, a Yankee was a New Englander.  So by her definition she wasn't a Yankee.  Besides, some of her family immigrated from Germany after the Civil War and homesteaded in South Dakota, so again, she couldn't be descended from Yankees.

Confused by the way the neighbors spoke about Yankees, Beverly asked directly, "Well, do you think I'm a Yankee?"

The answer, it turned out, was yes.  Her San Antonio neighbors finally decided that  "Yankee" means "not from Texas."

So you Mississippians, you better find another name for yourselves.  You ain't Texans, so you must be Yankees.

Simple process of elimination.  Patty



 Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 04:47 pm
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Widow
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Another late reply to Longstreet's question on 17 Aug 2006 about what is the South.  This has to do with what is a hillbilly. 

At a reenactment I was chatting with some Confederate infantrymen from the Richmond area.  Their soft drawl told me that these boys were natives, not transplants like me.

One said that his granddaddy came down from the mines to settle near Richmond.  "I think he killed a fella," the man added.  "Wasn't nobody dare call him hillbilly."

"I'd call him Mr. Hillbilly Sir!" put in another, with a mock salute.

The third said, "I'm not a hillbilly either.  I like to think of myself as an Appalachian-American."

And all of us politically incorrects got a good laugh.  Patty



 Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 02:50 pm
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David White
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"Yankee" means "not from Texas."

Yankee Widow:

It takes one to know one, tee hhee ;).



 Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 05:53 pm
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Widow
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David, I don't know any Texans.  Am I missing anything?

"Yankee widow," indeed.  I'm from southern Wyoming, I live in NoVa, so I guess I'm half and half.

Now folks, you notice this guy David White has a great big avatar telling us that he has an ATM card.  Or maybe it means Arkansas Tootin' and Marchin' Band.

You also see that he is very specific where he's from.  Texas USA.  Dear me.  Is there another Texas elsewhere?  Let's see, there's TEssex, England.  And TEssex, New Jersey.  Oops, I'm messin' with Texas.  I better vamoose.

Patty

Last edited on Fri Nov 10th, 2006 05:55 pm by Widow



 Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 09:12 pm
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James Longstreet
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My mother used to say that "the only person more arrogant than a Yankee was a Texan."  I think that anyone born north of Kentucky or west of Texas or Arizona is a Yankee, myself.



 Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 09:25 pm
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calcav
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To the rest of the world a Yankee is an American.

In the United States a Yankee is someone from the North.

In the North a Yankee is someone from New England.

In New England a Yankee is someone from Vermont.

In Vermont a Yankee is someone without indoor plumbing.



 Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 09:30 pm
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calcav
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To the rest of the world a Yankee is some from the United States.

In the United States a Yankee is somenone from the North.

In the North a Yankee is someone from New England.

In New England a Yankee is someone from Vermont.

In Vermont a Yankee is someone without indoor plumbing.

There you have it.

;)



 Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 09:31 pm
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calcav
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I didn't think it posted the first time so you get treated it to that gem twice.



 Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 10:32 pm
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Widow
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Ol' Pete:  Guess it all depends where you're standing, doesn't it?  In Wyoming, we thought Texas was back east and down south.  My sister-in-law from Washington state thought Wyoming was back east.  I'm not even going to ask what they think in Alaska and Hawaii.  Patty

Last edited on Fri Nov 10th, 2006 10:33 pm by Widow



 Posted: Sat Nov 11th, 2006 01:37 am
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James Longstreet
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Certainly where you're standing plays into it, but I think that there is a definate difference when you're talking about Southern culture and geography.  Someone from south Florida can be considered a Yankee to someone from Arkansas even though Florida geographically is the southernmost state in America's borders.  But culturally, Arkansas is more Southern than Florida nowadays.



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