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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Entertainment: Books, Movies, Music & Art > Civil War Music > Importance of music in this country and "our war." |
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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Entertainment: Books, Movies, Music & Art > Civil War Music > Importance of music in this country and "our war." |
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| Importance of music in this country and "our war." | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Tue May 24th, 2011 03:17 pm |
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1st Post |
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bhh Member
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In 1782 or there abouts, the British Army marched out of Yorktown to surrender to the Anglo-French Army of the Colonies to be free of English rule. The English band played a song by the name, "The World Turned Upside Down." In WWI, we were going to "Kick Kiser Bill in the Pants." and "Over There" were we wouldn't be back til it was over, "Over There." In WWII we had "God Bless Amercia" then "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition." Towards the end, when we could see that we were going to win it was "Don't set Under the Apple Tree" til I come marching home. In 1965, it was put silver wings on my sons chest, of the "Ballad of the Greet Bret." Three years later after the start of the Viet Nam war protest we had Eric Burton and War singing "War, good God ya'll, What is it good for." In a song titled "War.' Custer killed natives to the tune of the "Gary Owen" and on and on. Ever hear a Southern song being sung that said the South was fighting to keep the rich man in slaves? The music says something.
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| Posted: Tue May 24th, 2011 10:37 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Hellcat Person 
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Don't Sit Under the Apple Tree actually first appeared in '39 as part of a musical and it was after Pearl that the song was modified to include " 'till I come marching home." That was still before we could see we would win the war. Glenn Miller released a version in February '42, the war in the Pacific was still looking like a Japanese victory when he released this version. The Andrew Sisters version of the song first appeared May 28, 1942 in the movie Private Buckaroo. God Bless America dates originally to the summer of 1918, making it a WWI era song originally. Berlin then revised his song in '38 in part to remove political conotations. How'd you like to be singing the line "To the right with the light from above." Berlin felt that could be construed as meaning right wing party's in the '30s and so it became "Through the night with the light from above." The revised version was meant to be a song promoting peace. It can't be doubted these were popular during the war, but their both pre-WWII. Last edited on Tue May 24th, 2011 10:39 pm by Hellcat |
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| Posted: Wed May 25th, 2011 12:22 am |
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3rd Post |
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Mark Member
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Interesting question BHH. However, I would suggest that Dixie, the unofficial national anthem refers to the "land of cotton" where "old times are not forgotten." To me, this is a clear reference to the antebellum slave society. Additionally, in the popular Southern song, The Bonnie Blue Flag, the refrain refers to "Southern Rights." I think it is quite clear the song is referring to the right to perpetuate the institution of slavery. Any thoughts? Mark Last edited on Wed May 25th, 2011 12:52 am by Mark |
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| Posted: Wed May 25th, 2011 03:59 am |
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4th Post |
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bhh Member
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Yes, Mark. Just like anyone else that wants to cover up rape, murder, looting, and other bad things you preach the high minded thing when you know in your heart of heart that as racist as the country was that there were few whites really wanting to die for a Afro-American. Lincoln said he believed that the white man should rule, I have a yankee quotes that goes along the lines of, "now that I find we are fighting for the black man I will come home as soon as my enlistlment is up." And then Grant not freeing his slaves until the passing of the 13th in Dec. of 1865. And just because you can link "States Rights" to slavery doesn't mean that the non slave owner ever thought about the Black man. You give them a heck of a lot more importance in the mind of people who were mainly just trying to stay alive. Clinton running for president had a sign that said it is the "econemy stupid" and most of the time it is. Oh, and since the North was up to its ear in the slave trade it would be wise not to push it to hard. The one newspaper that I looked at from Washington D.C. was the Republican Party mouthpiece in Washington DC, and they reported that the ship, fitted out in New York had been captured and the slaves returned to and dropped off in Africia (without any idea were the people came from) and the ship reached Charleston the day after the state left the Union. It was going to be put up for sale. That the last slave ship left New York Harbor in 1880 to get slaves for Brazil. Not to mention that between Jan. 1, 1860 to Aug. 31, 1861, a twenty month period of time, 1000 ships were counted leaving New York to get slaves. Farmers sold them food, sail makers, rope makers, ship wrights, ships crew, and Bankers all involved in it as well. So do act so above it all. You Northern people were just as bad as the rest of the country. Plus this one fact. I believe that a person elected in El Paso, Texas to set in Government in Austin, knows more what a man in Houston or Lubbock needs then someone elected in L.A. or Boston to set in Washington, D.C. Go to the map and see what I am refering to. That is states rights to us. If you lived down here you would know that. And one last thing, We know that if the South wins, freeing the slave is mute. So the number one war aim was and has always been to take a gun and force the South back into the Union. Which brings up this question, "Where is the land of the free and home of the brave, if it takes a gun to keep the country together?" Which brings up the big lie of Lincoln. Where, if the South wins, is the Union going to go. That union between Maine, Mich, Mass. Minn. and Maryland, where is it going to go? Lincoln going to lock up the White House and go home? And it is almost a joke, is Congress going to stop taking it's check, lock up the Capital Building and go home? No, the US would have been just fine. And would have been just as strong. The South winning would have been bad because cotton would be grown in Turkey, Egypt, and India and the market would fall, leaving the CSA as a second rate nation. So it is good the South lost. Problem is my gg grandfather who grew corn, as did my Uncle and my cousin, who was murdered by the military governor of Western Tenn., all wore gray and had nothing to do with slavery. So don't try to shove it down my throat because I will not swallow it. Understand...back off or don't write me again. You have no idea and it always amazes me how you people think you can read our minds. I bet you liked the movie "Deliverance."
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| Posted: Wed May 25th, 2011 04:04 am |
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5th Post |
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bhh Member
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And Mark,. Shows how you don't know much. Anyone that knows anything about the war knows the irony of the music of the Battle Hymn of the Republic coming from a Flordia Gospel song while "Dixie" was more then likely written in New York by a Black family who wanted to return to the South. It was more then likely written about 1854 or there abouts. So you see, you put your twist to something you haven't got the slightest clue about. If I was you, I would shut my mouth before I make a complete fool of myself.
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| Posted: Wed May 25th, 2011 06:09 am |
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6th Post |
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susansweet2 Member
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William Steffe of South Carolina wrote the music for Battle Hymn of the Republic . Most sources credit Ohio-born Daniel Decatur Emmett with the song's composition; It came from a minstrel show. I would suggest too you not call another member who has been on the board for some time a complete fool and tell him to shut his mouth. We try to be Civil here on both sides.
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| Posted: Wed May 25th, 2011 06:28 am |
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7th Post |
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Texas Defender Member 
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bhh- While I am in general agreement with your apparent theme that it was mainly economic issues that determined where, when, and how slavery in America was practiced, I have a problem with some of the statements that you have made here. First you stated that General Grant didn't: "Free his slaves" until the 13th Amendment was ratified in December of 1865. Actually, Grant only owned one slave in his entire life, one William Jones. Grant freed Jones in March of 1859, in spite of the fact that he could have used the money that he could have gotten by selling him. It was Julia Dent Grant's parents, Colonel Frederick Tracy Dent, and his wife, Ellen Wrenshall who were pro-slavery and owned slaves. Colonel Dent made some of his slaves available to Julia as servants, but they weren't owned by Grant himself. Grant's parents were anti-slavery. I'd be interested to know what slave ship you believe was arriving at Charleston in December of 1860. As far as I know, the last ship that actually brought slaves in was the CLOTILDE, which arrived in Mobile Bay in 1859. Perhaps you are referring to the WANDERER, which was owned by Charles Lamar of Savannah. It was captured with a load of slaves in 1858 and sold in Charleston in 1859 (back to Lamar). You might be referring to the slave ship ERIE which was captured in August of 1860 attempting to bring in about 900 slaves. The captain, Nathaniel Gordon of Maine, was convicted of violating the US Piracy Act of 1820. He was hung in New York City in February of 1862. As for the song: "Dixie," it is credited to Daniel Decatur Emmett, and thought to have been written in New York City in 1859. However, that claim has been challenged and he might have collaborated with others such as the Snowden family of Ohio, or perhaps some others in New York City. Most likely we will never know, but it was Emmett who copyrighted it. As for the: "Battle Hymn of the Republic," by Julia Ward Howe, that came from the song: "John Brown's Body." The origin of that tune is also a bit uncertain. It is thought to have come out of the camp meeting movement of the early 19th century. That was a Protestant Christian religious movement in which people would come from far and wide to a meeting place to camp, listen to preachers, pray, and sing. The "Glory Hallelujah" refrain is thought to have been originated in 1856 by one William Steffe of South Carolina. The: "John Brown" part could have originated during the war with a Boston regiment, and while originally about the abolitionist, could have been directed in jest at a member of the regiment of the same name. All of this aside, what disturbs me is the bitter invective that you aim at Mark for simply suggesting that the lyrics of the two songs refer to slavery. Well, to those of that time, :"Southern rights" included the right to perpetuate the institution of slavery. Slaves were considered to be chattel property that their owners had the right to dispose of. What I think is your main objective is to dispute the notion that the reason the war was fought was simply to perpetuate slavery. Obviously, most southerners see the issue as being much more complex than that. The issue, as I view it, was how much authority the federal government could exercise over the states and the people. To most southerners, the federal government by 1860 had infringed on the rights of the states and the people under the 9th and the 10th Amendments to the Constitution. The southerners saw it as being their right to leave the Union that the states had voluntarily entered into. Obviously, most of the northerners had a different view, and the disagreement was settled at the point of a bayonet. Personally, I do not see where Mark has committed some grave offense by giving his opinion about the lyrics of the songs :"Dixie" and: "Bonnie Blue Flag". You hurl the epithet: "You northern people" at him, but I don't see where he has identified himself as being from the north. I don't know where he is from, or what his views on the causes of the war are. But I see no justification for your bitter attack implying that he : "Doesn't know very much," and should: "Shut his mouth." I don't see where he is trying to: "Shove it down your throat." Perhaps you should cool down and reconsider just who it is who might be: "Making a complete fool" of himself. Last edited on Wed May 25th, 2011 07:20 am by Texas Defender |
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| Posted: Wed May 25th, 2011 08:03 am |
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8th Post |
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Hellcat Person
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It's been theorized that the tune which became John Brown's Body and then Battle Hymn of the Republic originated in Sweden before 1700 as a drinking song. It then reached England where it became the Nancy Dawson Country Dance, which was named for a popular dancer during George II reign. Charles Wesley, one of the founders of the Methodist Church, had a bunch of soldiers break up one of his meetings by singing the Nancy Dawson Country Dance which lead to his supposedly coming up with a new verse to shut the soldiers up. However James Fuld has brought up questions as to Wesley's connection to the song as none of his hymns have the same tune (and it should be noted that the Nancy Dawson Country Dance went more the tune of Here we go round the Mulberry Bush than what becaem Battle Hymn of the Republic). Fuld also points out that Broder Viljen I Ga Med Oss, which is sung to the tune in Sweden, is first recorded as appearing in 1875. It could possible that there was an older traditional drinking song from Sweden that spawned the tune. If so, it wouldn't be the first time a patriotic song in this country could trace it's tune back to a drinking song from another country. The Anacreontic Song, or To Anacreon in Heaven as it may be better known, has been considered a drinking song. We know the tune so well, after all Defence of Fort McHenry was set to it the same year it was released as a poem and in '31 it became the offical National Anthem. Yep, the Star Spangled Banner was set to the tune of an English drinking song from the 18th century.
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| Posted: Wed May 25th, 2011 10:02 am |
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9th Post |
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javal1 Grumpy Geezer 
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"If I was you, I would shut my mouth before I make a complete fool of myself." If that's the tone of civility you expect to bring to this board, your stay will be short. Consider that your one and only warning.
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| Posted: Wed May 25th, 2011 02:45 pm |
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10th Post |
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9Bama Member
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Texas Defender wrote: bhh- TD Once again, a well reasoned and articulate post. I concur in your sentiments. You and I are both proud southerners and like you, I really dislike reading posts with so much venom, especially from a new poster. Ed
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| Posted: Wed May 25th, 2011 03:46 pm |
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11th Post |
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Mark Member
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bhh, I do apologize if I offended you. My views are sincerely held and I stand by them. You make an interesting point about Dixie, it certainly was quite popular in the Northern states as well as the Southern states. Even so, I would suggest that for the Southerner during the war years the song came to embody a yearning for the antebellum society of the South which was typified by the institution of slavery. I hope that clarifies my thought. And as an aside, I have no dog in the fight over the 1860s definition of “states’ rights.” I had no family in North America during the 1860s and I have either lived in the west or the south my entire life. Best regards, Mark PS. Great post TD
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| Posted: Wed May 25th, 2011 10:46 pm |
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12th Post |
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bhh Member
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Sir, Your apology need not be given. I have come from the History Channel were the people on a number of times were out right rude and wouldn't share or listen to any view that was different from theirs. What I wrote then is based on past problems so forgive me and if the shoe doesn't fit, please don't try to ware it. What I get tire of is the belief that for all the people of an area there was one and only one reason to go to war. As I stated that someone could read our minds why we fight or still fight that war. I'll will always defend the section as long as there are poeple who have been made to feel shame for where they were born. As to belief, in this country there are now about 3.25 miillion people and I would say there are about 3.25 views on the President from out right love to down right hate. I have to be aware that this isn't the Civil War board of the History Channel and that this maybe much better group of honest people who will listen. As to the songs, I have repeated what I have heard and believed to be true. Now it maybe a good thing to check into to really find out the facts. Howe's Battle Hymn was written in about 20 minutes the night after Bull Run. Oh, I don't really dislike Yankees. They are after all my country men, but sometimes I find they don't like me. Being foolish is what I am also very good at being. That in itself is a right and I darn well do a good job of it. I have found things that point to other causes then slavery for this conflict. And I have been called a liar and a neo-Confederate, as in neo Nazis and other names just because I have a love for my family, my state, my section, and my country. But some of what has gone on says the country doesn't return that love. Not trying to pluck heart strings, just stating what I have gone through. This maybe a chance for real work to be done and real understand reached for all. I don't dislike anyone, AND if I err it is my information maybe wrong. I would like to see the information. I was told one day by a person that the House of the Rising Sun was sung by Muddy Waters in 1930's and it was his song. I found out that it was around as early as 1865 maybe, and it was first put on a record in the 1920's by two white guys in Tenn. So there is a great deal of information out there, which is right And one last thing, thank you for being so nice...It is refreshing to find people who might be willing to listen and discuss.
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| Posted: Wed May 25th, 2011 11:46 pm |
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13th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member 
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As to Civil War music, I am very partial to the six cd volumes by Bobby Horton called "Songs of the CSA"......The first volume has the more "traditional" Southern songs, and the other 5 volumes are songs popular among the soldiers/civilians....In my opinion, the majority of troops weren't fighting to keep slavery, as most owned none and really didn't care too much one way or the other. They fought to protect their homes, etc....They joined up to fight because their buddy or their neighbor did, and they didn't want to feel "shamed" by not joining up.....In the six volumes of Bobby Horton, I hear very few songs mentioning slavery.....If art imitates life, then one can draw conclusions...... Thanks!!
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| Posted: Thu May 26th, 2011 01:28 am |
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14th Post |
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susansweet2 Member
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That is why I like you two. Bama and Texas you are Southern Gentlemen. We may not all agree on every point on this board but we respect each other and our opinions . Miss Susan
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| Posted: Thu May 26th, 2011 03:13 am |
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15th Post |
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9Bama Member
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Bhh, I understand your fustrations and even anger at people who wold condem you because of the land of your birth. I have had the same things happen to me, and I suspect I am a few decades older than you. I would only offer these 2 pieces of advice. 1. Pick your battles as you cannot win them all. In addition, understand the war was our ancestor's war, not yours. You can neither effect the outcome or explain away those things that are truly warts. 2. Look before you leap. There are many on this board who will help you on your journey if you will let them, but if you come out swinging before understanding who the players are and what they know or don't know, you are gonna wind up landing all your punches on your own head. Last edited on Thu May 26th, 2011 03:16 am by 9Bama |
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| Posted: Thu May 26th, 2011 08:58 pm |
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16th Post |
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susansweet2 Member
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Good post Bama.
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| Posted: Fri May 27th, 2011 05:33 am |
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17th Post |
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bhh Member
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9 Bama, I am more likely older then you. I retire this year and will shorty draw what SS they will let me have. I had to defend a great deal of the time on the History Channel. iI reacted because there we of the South were always told, we were stupid. Our fight was stupid, our lost cause was stupid, and we were a bunch of toothless, banjo picking, hay seeds. As in the movie "Deliverance." This fight actually started in the 1600's with the English Civil War. The Royals settled the South. We named our towns, Rivers, cities, and colonies after the Royals. The people up North were middle class "pure" type who in England will cut the head off of a King and then turn around and do what the King was doing. They came here to worship the way they wanted to and told others who followed to worship the way they did. And in our part of the war, what did we call Southern cavalry, same as the mascot of the University of Virgina, today? It is the same thing that the Royalist were called. While many Yankee companies called themselves "Roundheads" as well as the complete 100th Penn. Vol. Infantry. Oh, by the way, the movie Glory has the Drill Sgt. say something about Bonnie Prince Charles which is also a point back to that conflict. As far as that goes the American Rev. starts in Lexington and Concord Mass. not Lexington, Virgina or Concord, Texas. Why because New England is England without the King. They have the town commons, and all things named after and like England but with no royalty. Some Yankees will go as far as to call the South the "knighted region." And they still didn't like us during the Rev. Mass. Troops wouldn't go south and fight at Yorktown because they said, "We signed up to fight for Mass. not for Virginia." So much for the idea of one country. I have been told many things and I still stand by these I wrote until someone brings forth, the book, and the information that proves they are right in what they are saying. One of the things that the Civil War Ills. Magazine stated is that Grant freed a slave in 1850's(?), to his credit, when he could have used the money if he had sold him off. This is while Grant was living in Ohio as a civilian. I still stand by most of what I said. I am a former vp of the Austin Texas Civil War Roundtable. I have met all those people you see on the History Channel as authors of Civil War Books and are "authorities" on the war. Ed Bares told me and another person there were no such thing as a Black Confederate, and I then showed him pictures of some that came to the Confederate Army's last reunion and he was speechless. Gary Gallagher was a founder of the Austin Roundtable. And said that Napoleonic warfare had nothing to do with warfare in the Civil War! Line formation fighting in the open field was very much Napoleonic. In fact the sides in 1812 stood at about the same distance as the reb and the yank did, 80 yards on average. Wart, Davis (Both of them), and many others spoke regularly and they know mainly that which they study and write about. They haven't really gone into the slave trade, slavery, the Southern Social makeup, a study on the tariff system and what was happening there, the political changes from whig to know-nothing to Republican, etc. etc. I have and since 1980. Mark, the poor guy was talking just like those people on the History channel blog. Saying things that he didn't know about. My music information says the music to Battle Hymn came from a popular hymn being sung in Florida in the 1850's. I didn't say that so and so wrote it or that it came from Sweden to start with. That is not the point I was making. It was being use in Florida in the 1850's and therefore was from there to be used by those up north. The point I was making is the two songs of both sides came from the land of the other. Even the not so perfect Ken Burns' PBS series says the song Dixie may have come from a Black family up North. If I remember right. That was all I was saying. People take a mole hill and turn it into a mountain to prove their point when their point was not the aim to start with. I am getting fed up with the complete human race. They (including me) have gone crazy. My last post on the History Channel was removed because it was from a couple of Yankee letters and journals. One were the yank writes in Jan. of 1863. "Now that I find we are fighting for the Black man, when my enlistment is up, I will be coming home." In 1864 the man went home. In another, the rape, which I could have added the lady raped by "colored" troops around Petersburg and hung on the Union line so that the rebels would know just action had been taken. Sherman sat on a board in trial on three different cases of rape in Savannah and that held him up before he could march into South Carolina. Look at what was done at Fredricksburg by the Union army when they entered the town. Real good wasn't it. That upset some of those up North and I was sent packing and the blog was removed. The times Southern forces went North only the town in Penn. had it's downtown burned. Private homes were spared. My own great great grandfather's home was burned north of Atlanta, and it wasn't much more then a lean to. But it protected my gg grand mother and her children. Left to starve...is that how to treat people? To me people are more important then union, more important then a president, more important then a dollar and more important then a country. But in this case the people and the country are suppose to be the same thing. Now, let that swing around the brain for a second or two. When you figure out which one breaths you should have also picked the one that is most important as well. Sorry If I sound angry to all, but I am just blunt with this. I can not change that. I will now leave this blog as well. I wish everyone good will and GOD speed. And I ask that you be kind to one another even when you do not see eye to eye. You both have points. But then the Earth is a Southern planet... 
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| Posted: Fri May 27th, 2011 02:04 pm |
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18th Post |
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9Bama Member
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If you are still around, I will state for the record that we are about the same age! additionally, if you come in, rant, and then leave, you will never convince anyone of anything, nor will you ever learn anything... this is not the History Cahnnel.com. I have never been there so don't know what goes on there choice is yours
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| Posted: Sat May 28th, 2011 03:47 am |
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19th Post |
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9Bama Member
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Guess he just stopped in to raise hell for a while and then go.. too bad!
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| Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Entertainment: Books, Movies, Music & Art > Civil War Music > Importance of music in this country and "our war." | Top |
