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Genreal sherman hero cold blooded killer - William T. Sherman - The Participants of the War - Mikitary & Civilian - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
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 Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 08:57 pm
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izzy
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Deshtroying people food supply homes taking livestock and anything elsee of use is no way to fight a war the south had a since of honor when they marched to gettysburg

44VA Inf:  The following is an excerpt from The Battle of Wild Cat Mountain: Kentucky, October 21, 1861 by Kenneth A. Hafendorfer; KH Press, Louisville, KY; 2003. Page 263:

[The battle of Wild Cat Mountain occurred on Oct. 21, 1861.  Confederate Brig. Gen. Felix Zollicoffer was defeated by entrenched Union forces.  The following excerpt is about what the Union forces found along Zollicoffer's retreat route just after the battle:]

As the Federals pushed on toward Pittman's Cross Roads, the were ill prepared for what they would see in the wake of the retreating Confederate army.  Quoting from Private John Inskeep's diary this day, he wrote: "General devastation marking their course.  In a letter to his wife, Colonel Connell wrote: "All along the road we saw evidences of the shameful flight of Zollicoffer, which was a worse panic than of our forces from Bull Run.  His army was composed of vandals and theives.  They stripped the country like an army of locusts, breaking open houses, stealing even women's clothes, and making fires of furniture" 

Private Henry K. Thoman of the 17th Ohio wrote: "They kill everything.  Some they kill and cut a piece off and the rest they let lay.  What they don't want, they shoot down."  Lieutenant Josiah Farrington of the 14th Ohio wrote: "While the enemy was in the country and wherever he came across a dwelling and farm there was total destruction.  In many instances and wherever he camped overnight, the ground was literally covered with the half-eaten carcasses of cattle taken by the enemy from the inhabitants without money or price and killed." 

 Private Orland P. Cutter of Standart's battery wrote: "All along the road were evidence of their work of destruction.  They destroyed bridges, fences, and even houses.  Carcasses of horses, cattle, and hogs, were strewn along the roadside.  In many places they had felled large trees across the road to cover their retreat."

44VA Inf:  Note the early date of the battle: 1861.  Destruction due to the presence of an army began very early in the war.  You will find examples galore throughout the war by both sides.  In fact, as a project you might look for examples where destruction or foraging did not occur instead of wasting time finger pointing. 

In fact that might be a good thread to start.



 Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 01:25 am
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Johan Steele
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Bama46 wrote: johan,
you seem to poo poo every instance of federal extremism, and emphasize every confederate instance of extremism....  Only someone who is purposefully ignorant of my stated views about how the Native American has been treated by the US or how the black man was betrayed after the CW could say that with a straight face.

If you really feel this way, then drop your pretense of feeling for the confederate soldier and declare that you hate all things confederate.  It isn't a pretense and I'll call a bald faced liar any who say otherwise.  I respect fighting men, I always have.  I don't respect the politicians, slaveocracy and wannabes who sent them off to die. The CS soldier was a fighting man as good as any of his day; he was let down by his govt and its political leadership.  I respect fighting men who are willing to put it all on the line, sorry but I see few CS politicians who were that willing... and those who founded the Lost Cause were the stay behinders who alluded that the CS soldier didn't do enough because they couldn't whip the cowardly, incompetant, raping, murdering, plundering, ad nauseum US soldier.

By the way, what happened to the Roswell women would not be significant today, but in 1865...
Ed  True, and as I said it was no worse than what happened in many other places throughout the Civil War; it pales in comparison to the Trail of Tears or what happened to the Apache in their forced relocation after they trounced the US Army... repeatedly.  Compared to the treatment of the black man and practical apartheid for more than a century...  I suppose it is a matter of degree.


I emphasize CS extremism because some choose minimize it and take every opportunity to slander the US w/ as broad a brush as possible.  Consider it a balancing act.  I grow weary of those who eagerly smear this country and her soldiers at every opportunity, whether in 1866 or 2008.  The CS was a far cry from as pure as the driven snow as was/is the US.  I long ago grew weary of those who thought it was ok to smear the US, and those who have defended her, but when anything negative about the CS was mentioned... the cry goes up that he's ANTI_SOUTHERN!  A load of... posh.

Southern does not = Confederate and Confederate does not = Southern.  Roughly 250,000 Southerners who served in the US Army from 1861-1865 prove that beyond any shadow of doubt.



 Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 02:10 am
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44th VA INF
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I dont realy agee onthat statement there were only 3 freemen taken back to the confedracy and i t wsas by some rich farmer offiecer because i know genral lee would not have alowwed this and plus shermen was way worse in geoirgia



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 Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 03:44 am
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PvtClewell
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44th VA INF wrote:
I dont realy agee onthat statement there were only 3 freemen taken back to the confedracy and i t wsas by some rich farmer offiecer because i know genral lee would not have alowwed this and plus shermen was way worse in geoirgia

If that's the case, then Lee didn't know what was going on in his own command, which is highly doubtful.

This comes from Stephen Sear's book 'Gettysburg', pp. 111-112:

"Slave-catching, whether or not it was officially sanctioned, was without question widely and officially tolerated. ...Longstreet's adjutant, in a dispatch to General PIckett, made note that 'The captured contrabands had better be brought along with you for further disposition.' The number of free or fugitive blacks condemned to slavery during these weeks can only be estimated, but widespread testimony suggests that it was in the hundreds. Of various ugly incidents stemming from Lee's Pennsylvania invasion, this was surely the ugliest."



 Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 04:19 am
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javal1
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Bama & Johan -

If you simply wish to exchange charges of bias, please do it via PM or e-mail. Thank you.



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 Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 04:44 am
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Johan Steele
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My apologies Javal; I'll no longer respond to Bama.



 Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 04:46 am
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44th VA, you have had several comments that you have not replied to. What do you think of the information that is new to you.



 Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 05:47 am
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"By the end of the campaign Wheeler's cavalry was regarded by most Georgians who had made its acquaintance as more rapacious and destructive than the Yankees." [Lee Kennett, Marching Through Georgia: The Story of Soldiers & Civilians During Sherman's Campaign, p. 278]

"What enraged Georgians above all was that they had been plundered by Wheeler's men long before any Union foragers came into sight; worst of all, the Southern horsemen had taken livestock and destroyed provisions well outside the 'swath,' though in truth they could not know just where Sherman's columns were headed. The Milledgeville paper reported they had showed up there well after Sherman had departed, and then 'loitered about.'" [Ibid., p. 312]

"According to many southerners, Wheeler's cavalrymen were worse plunderers than Sherman's troops, although in part this reputation was undeserved. Since mid-1864 these Confederate horsemen had received no government rations and, therefore, had to live off the land. They also had the unenviable task of destroying food, forage, cotton and mills before they fell into the hands of Sherman's men. Neither of these practices endeared them to the inhabitants of Georgia and the Carolinas. Yet there was no doubt that some of Wheeler's troops, as well as mounted Confederate deserters who claimed to be in Wheeler's command, wantonly stole from and abused the inhabitants of those states." [Joseph T. Glatthaar, The March to the Sea and Beyond: Sherman's Troops in the Savannah and Carolinas Campaigns, pp. 151-152]



 Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 01:52 pm
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44th VA INF wrote: I dont realy agee onthat statement there were only 3 freemen taken back to the confedracy and i t wsas by some rich farmer offiecer because i know genral lee would not have alowwed this and plus shermen was way worse in geoirgia
44th VA INF, could you please site the sources of your information such as Johan has done---books, journals, diaries, newspapers from the Civil War that have the information you referenced? I am particularly interested in your statement that ONLY THREE Northern freedmen were forced back into slavery.  I have read volumns and volumns of books about the Civil War and never come across such a reference anywhere.  

Let me add that if you suppose I am a highly biased Yankee, I have great sympathy for both the Union and the Confederacy having lived many years on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. Afterall, my screen name is Cleburne Fan. You do know who General Cleburne was, I assume. 

Last edited on Sat Sep 6th, 2008 01:53 pm by CleburneFan



 Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 03:02 pm
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This comes up from time to time on all boards and never, ever does it fail to stir up strong emotions.

By and large, Sherman's goal was to demonstrate to the southern people that the Confederacy was finished. Secondarily, he aimed to deprive the Confederate armies of any and all supplies filtering to them from the farms and villages of Georgia.

Many people (innocent if you want) in his path were rather severely inconvenienced, most especially the Roswell women. That particular incident always comes up when this subject is opened, and there simply is no excuse for that.

But the idea that Sherman was a war criminal is simply ludicrous. Any and all wars eventually get down to the civilians. Our esteemed colleague, Sarladaise, ought to know (at least second hand) of the affects of traversing troops on one's land and the disruption of one's pursuit of happiness. The allies did almost as much damage as did the Bosch.

A war always depends on the will of the civilian. Sherman broke that will. Perhaps a better subject for discussion would be whether Sherman's march shortened that unfortunate conflict and by how much.

ole



 Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 03:21 pm
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At the risk of seeming to pile on, 44th Va Infantry, you are required to back up the statement that there were only three freedmen taken during the Pennsylvania Campaign.

Given that you are young and wonderfully enthusiastic about all of our favorite subject, you get a pass. But if you choose to continue in any discussion group, you will be asked, again and again, to provide backup for what you say.

In all accounts I've ever read, I've seen no exact number of blacks -- freedmen or escaped slaves -- taken from their homes in Pennsylvania, but I'm convinced that there were a great deal more than three.

Keep on trucking, pard. I don't think I'm out of line in saying that our community is always glad to have young men and women take an interest in the USCW. (Usually we whine and cry about not getting the youngers to join in.) Having said that, most of us are here to learn something we didn't know. So if there were only three freedmen sent south, it's something I didn't know and would very much like to read for myself who said that and where.

ole



 Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 04:12 pm
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The number was in the hundreds, how many may never be known.  At one point Stuart confiscated the horses of some slave catchers that were following the Army as they were better mounted than most of his Cav... he wasn't terribly fond of stay behinders & wannabes either.

I don't recall the source off hand, The South's Inner Civil War perhaps?  Perhaps someone else who recalls the incident can speak up.



 Posted: Mon Sep 8th, 2008 03:41 pm
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Could the source be the relatively new book about the retreat from Gettysburg?

"Retreat from Gettysburg: Lee, Logistics, and the Pennsylvania Campaign" by Kent Masterson Brown, 2005.

That tome may cover the removal of runaway slaves and/or freedmen that the Confederates apprehended.

ArtorBart



 Posted: Mon Sep 8th, 2008 05:14 pm
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Several hundred men registering with the Freedman's Bureau after the war reported their 'home' as being in the north and that they were captured and brought South as slaves during the Gettysburg campaign.

However, I'm not sure where I picked up this tidbit. I have a vague mental photgraph of it being in an issue of the Journal of Southern History.

Mainly, it sticks in my mind as a good use of tangential records...


HankC



 Posted: Mon Sep 8th, 2008 05:18 pm
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ole wrote: This comes up from time to time on all boards and never, ever does it fail to stir up strong emotions.

By and large, Sherman's goal was to demonstrate to the southern people that the Confederacy was finished. Secondarily, he aimed to deprive the Confederate armies of any and all supplies filtering to them from the farms and villages of Georgia.

Many people (innocent if you want) in his path were rather severely inconvenienced, most especially the Roswell women. That particular incident always comes up when this subject is opened, and there simply is no excuse for that.

 
One must also recall that Sherman marched to the sea through an area of mostly subsistence farming and his men lived off the land.
 
Presumably each farm raised enough 'rations' for their own selves, whether 6 or 600, and sudddenly some 80,000 men came to dinner...
 
 
HankC



 Posted: Mon Sep 8th, 2008 05:22 pm
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Johan Steele wrote: Sarladaise, the claims of the rape and murder of Roswell women is pure propoganda. What was done to them was bad, they were deported. No worse than what happened to Unionist Germans in Texas, Unionists in TN & Alabama etc. It was an ugly war, but by no means the worst... hell not even close on that mark.

I've never understood Sherman's motive at Roswell...
 
 
HankC



 Posted: Mon Sep 8th, 2008 06:37 pm
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I've never understood Sherman's motive at Roswell...

Nor have I. However great the idea was of romping unchallenged through Georgia, this one doesn't fit. In very nearly everything I've read on Sherman, he comes across as a human. And then there is this thing at Roswell. Totally off line. What did he have for breakfast that morning that sent him over the edge?

Roswell was not my Sherman.

ole



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