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Confederate Flag removed from Civil War display at local high school - Other Civil War Talk - Civil War Talk - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
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 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 06:20 am
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ole
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If the CBF represents that grubby little bastard that fought until the end for whatever the hell he fought for, the CBF has honor. Beyond that, it has no place.

ole



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 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 01:07 pm
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javal1
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It really depends on the context of the display. If it was in fact merely to educate (i.e.- this is what the flag of the Confederacy looked like), then I have no problem with that. If, on the other hand, it was there to "honor" and be a symbol with an underlying political statement, then it has no place in a school. Having said that, there's many things in Lorraine's letter I totally disagree with, including:

"It was a symbol of their sovereignty long before it, unfortunately, became a symbol of racism in America."

"Being offended by the Confederate Flag is a result of being ignorant of it's history. "

"It is unfortunate that today this flag has been adopted by a subculture that promotes racism but that is not what it originally stood for."

I find all these things incorrect for various reasons stated on other threads.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 03:15 pm
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HankC
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Cookie,

You may be better off to display 'concern' rather than 'outrage' and have an alternative proposal ready.

Over-the-top reactions to school officials actions, whose primary concerns are education AND safety (and have enough on the their plate already, won't help your position...


HankC



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 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 04:32 pm
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booklover
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From a broader perspective, it seems that some people long for a day that never was, i.e., when history was "pure" and taught "like it should have been" in the public schools. Back when I was in school, teaching "pure" history meant that America could do no wrong and was more an exercise in nationalist propaganda than trying to show what really happened. It wasn't until I reached college that I realized there was a little of both in it. America did some really great things in its past but it also committed some really horrible acts.
I'm not in favor of whitewashing the past from either side. No matter how much people don't want to admit it, the CBF was, is and always will be a symbol of southern racism. That said, southern racism was a part of our history and should never be downplayed because the mere mention of it offends someone, on either side. To show a student what that symbol was is not wrong. To prompt discussion on whether it was indeed a symbol of southern racism is not wrong. To let all sides speak out on this issue is not wrong. To hold on to some fantastical past where history used to be taught "pure" and "right" is wrong and always will be. Political correctness is alive and well on both sides.

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Rob



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 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 06:26 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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To those who say the CBF "was and always has been" a symbol of racism, I must disagree.

During the Civil War, that flag did NOT stand for, nor mean, "I hate black people", i.e, racist sentiment. To think that it did betwen 1861-1865, is a gross mis-interpretation of history and Southern sentiment. I personally take offense from people who accuse my Southern ancestors, Southern soldiers, as ALL being racist.

Since the war, various organizations and individuals have corrupted it to the point that it is synonymous with hate. It appears that those hate-mongers have become historical revisionists, in that they've taken away the meaning and replaced it with a vile theory promoting racism.

Please, do not offend me and my forefathers by shoving down my throat that the CBF "was" always a symbol of racism. Am I a racist because I reenact in a Confederate artillery unit, flying our battery flag behind us? Or, in that capacity, am I a teacher? If I am a teacher, waving the CBF, am I teaching/promoting racism? In this context, does the CBF ALWAYS represent racism? If not, then to generalize by saying the CBF always was and is racist, is dead wrong.

Slavery existed under the United States flag first, and longer, than it did under the CBF during the war for Southern Independance.

That's my two cents....

Albert Sailhorst



 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 06:39 pm
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booklover
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I have to leave for work right now, but as I am off this weekend (and will have some more time) I will be happy to answer both posts.

I will say this Albert, not knowing you I cannot say (and would never presume) that you are a racist. However, what that symbol stood for in 1861 and what it stands for today are one in the same. Again, I will answer in greater detail later (although this is one of those arguments where neither side will change the other's mind).

Best
Rob



 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 06:50 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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Rob,
In 1861-1865, it stood for the rights of state's vs. the rights af Federal government. That has always been a Constitutional issue, utill the Civil War. Slavery in America was not racially motivated, it was economically motivated.
Today, hate groups have assinged to the CBF racial/hatred definitions.
Again, IF it stands for racism, AND I wave it at a reenactment, what am I promoting?
It appears that no minds will be changed, but I damn sure hate for someone to tell me that the CBF meant racism and hatred to the soldiers that fought under it. There were plenty of Southern soldiers who didn't own slaves and didn't care one way or another if slavery existed or not, nor did they hate blacks. Don't make those Southern soldiers into Neo-Nazis. The one's that are the Neo-Nazis are the ones who've altered the flag for their own purposes.
To say that what it stood for in 1861 and what it stands for today is to call me a racist for waving it and having it hang in my home. I take great offense to that. To that end, perhaps the CBF means certain things to certain people; however, the original intent was not racist nor hate-spreading.

Albert Sailhorst



 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 07:19 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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Just curious, but do the First, Second and Third National flags adopted by the Confederate States represent racism too?
Sheesh, my dander is up and I wish it weren't....I've got a reenactment this weekend, and all I'll be able to think about is how racist my ancestors were and how racist I am.....That ought to ruin my weekend. Thanks......



 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 07:21 pm
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javal1
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"Slavery in America was not racially motivated, it was economically motivated."


Just curious - how many white slaves were there in 1861?



 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 07:35 pm
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Texas Defender
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   If it had not been beneficial economically to keep slaves, then there wouldn't have been any.



 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 08:06 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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Texas Defender,

Thanks for making my point for me....You said it the way I wanted to say it regarding economics.

The comment about about why weren't there white slaves, in my opinion, is applying 21st century thought to accepted practices/mores of the 19th century.

First, native Africans didn't have the means to resist becomming enslaved, ie, weapons, fighting capability that the whites did.

Second, and today we know better,  Africans were seen (in 19th century thought) as ignorant and thus easily enslaved (I'll take flack for that comment, I'm sure, but bear in mind, I said "today we know better").

At one time, there were indentured servants, so yes, white slaves did exist.

Sadly, I am a step away from canceling my account. I come here to learn, not be insulted and have it implied that I am, or all Southerners are/were racist. I'd have expected better from the people here. I'm sure you'll find very few Southerners decided to risk their lives and be killed just to supress a particular race. Personally, I wouldn't die to keep someone in bondage, and I doubt very many others would either. Remember, there was also sentiment among Federal troops after the Emancipation Proclimation, that they weren't fighting to free the slaves; they were fighting to preserve the Union. On the other side of the coin, Confederate troops didn't fight to keep slavery.

I need to go before my weekend is entirely ruined.

I'll be thinking of y'all as the Southern Cross flies behind me this weekend.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 08:17 pm
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javal1
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Albert,

First of all, this thread was about the Confederate flag what it represents, and it's place in schools. Surely you didn't expect everyone to agree with you, did you?

You're the only one who said that if you fly it, then you're a racist. Didn't see anyone else make that claim.

There are people who view the flag as a symbol of racism, then and now. I happen to be one of them. There are also those who believe it represents the federal/state chism. You happen to be one of those. The fact that you carry the flag, believing that, doesn't make you a racist. To me, the only racists are those who believe it was a symbol of racism, and carry it because of that. Big, big difference.

 If you feel the need to cancel your account because others believe in their opinion as much as you believe in yours, then so be it. IMO, you'd be wrong, and you'd certainly be missed.



 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 08:18 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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Just two more cents to toss in, if I may....Actually, there were SOME black slaveholders in the South....Just now, I don't have a source to quote, but I know there were some.

Y'all have a great weekend!



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