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ole
Member
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This subject is rapidly becoming emotionally overwrought. The Confederate Battle Flag, St. Andrew's cross with stars, was carried into battle by ordinary guys who presumably fought for what they believed. For that reason, and for that reason alone, it ought to symbolize an American fighting man. That he was fighting for the right or wrong cause has little to do with it. On that point alone will I concede that the CBF represents honor.
It is not my fault nor my problem that it has come to mean something different. I am not a member of the "northern" media. It isn't "their" fault nor problem either. The flag was pre-empted by aome rather unsavory characters without so much as a peep from those who now whine about the interpretation given it.
If you want that flag to mean what it ought to mean, you'll have to peel back the layers of history during which it was defiled. Selma. Little Rock. Memphis. The flag has friends on this board. Unfortunately, very few outside of it.
oleLast edited on Sat Oct 6th, 2007 06:36 am by ole
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Roger
Member
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I must've written half a dozen replies to this and erased them all.
There's maybe more to the story than the few short paragraphs in the newspaper. It would be interesting to know if the school actually spent some time "educating" the pupil on why the flag was being displayed. A good chance to explain it's origins and what it meant in a historical context and not just modern extremists has been lost.
In my opinion by provoking debate and possibly outrage the display did it's job. Removing it is surely an admission of the flag symbolising modern racial hatred and not it's historical context.
Roger
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ole
Member
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Thank you, Roger. Us over here tend to fly off the handle whenever this or that bit of news comes across the wire. And then it becomes a story that some befogged nobody types onto the screens where the pretty people read it and give us SCHOOL REJECTS CIVILWAR FLAG! We are gullible and really quite willing to buy this crap.
Fortunately, when we sober up, we do tend to get real..
ol2
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Roger
Member
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I showed my 15 year old son the thread yesterday when he got home from school. He said he will be making a complaint against the school and make them take down the pictures of Hitler in his history classroom.
I hope he was joking
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sweetea
Member
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Who counted slaves or their color? A slave was a slave was a slave.... They existed in the north as well as the south after the start of the War. I presently live in a rural area a bit north of Gettysburg. Slaves (of whatever color) certainly did exist here; this was (still is) farming country and labor was in short supply.
I believe slavery was out of this area before 1863 - probably.
My personal sources are Wills and Day(?) Books.
Does anyone know which was the predominant CS flag during July 1863? Was it the Stainless Banner? I'm not sure that the Bonnie Blue was around any more by then, and there were quite a few flags of various generals.
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HankC
Member
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Confederate flags were seldom seen after the war except at various veterans, SCV, UDC and TGIF gatherings. It stood for a limited number of ideas and the people using it knew it and said so.
Then in 1948, the federal Civil Rights Commission was established to bring sweeping change in national race relations, with the support of Harry Truman and the Democratic Party. Southern Democrats, upset with the party's support of the commission, deserted the Democratic Party to start their own political group, the Dixiecrats. The party was openly opposed to civil rights legislation. The Confederate flag and the song "Dixie" were adopted as official symbols of the party. Ever since the two have been linked with segregation and racism in the minds of most Americans.
I have not yet seen the letters of protest written by the UDC or SCV about the mis-use of these cherished symbols in such a cause.
History is a continuous sweep of events; it cannot be picked and chosen to satisfy one’s own agenda.
HankC
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booklover
Member
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You know guys, I had planned to write another post arguing my point, but after a while a body just gets tired of beating his head against the wall. Give the rebel yell to your heart's content gentlemen.
Best
Rob
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Cookie12NJCoD
Guest
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Such heated debate. I enjoyed reading everyone's point of view here. I just wanted to let you know the current situation. The superintendent wrote back and claims while he agrees with those who have expressed concern over removing the flag from a historical display he felt it was best to remove the "offending artifact" in order to maintain the peace. By that, I am sure he meant he wanted to avoid hearing from the family again. My husband is a teacher in a public high school and we know how sue happy everyone is. The Gloucester County Times also posted an editorial stating they felt an opportunity to learn something was lost here by a hasty decision.
The end result is the flag is still missing from a historical display. How can you represent the fight when only one side is allowed to be visible? Perhaps this analogy is not quite adequate but to me it's like leaving out the Red Baron when talking about Eddie Rickenbacker because he represented the "bad guys". What's the point? Without eachother, neither is valid as far as history is concerned.
Just my humble point of view. Please don't all get upset over it. I hate to see anyone leave the board over a spirited debate.
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Bama46
Guest
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Cookie,
I am so sorry that PC and fear has permeated your high school. It is a shame that an educational display cannot be prtrayed accurately.. Wonder where the USA went when we were not looking?
Ed
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39th Miss. Walker
Member
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ROB, just a FYI but there are re-enactors of all of the wars fought on American soil. Rev War, 1812, CW.
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Albert Sailhorst
Member
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Javal,
First, my apologies for misinterpreting what you said.....After consideration and after reading your post with a more objective train of thought, I see you were'nt inviting me to leave, to the contrary, you were’nt. I also appreciate your saying I'd be missed....I am humbled and flattered.
Booklover,
Thanks! I appreciate your words regarding CW reenactments/reenactors.
Just a side note, there are WWII reenactors….oddly, I’ve seen them at CW reenacments recruiting, albeit, their type of reenacting is’nt as extensive as CW.
Your question regarding if the South had won, would slavery have been abandoned?….In my opinion, the Industrial revolution would have killed slavery, however, no one during the CW could have foreseen the Industrial revolution, so, I think, it would have continued until then, and then died out. After all, it’s cheaper still to operate a machine than to feed, cloth and house a workforce.
I also agree with you: the flag should be shown to students for what it stood for, NOT what it has come to stand for (in the eyes of those who’ve twisted it, as well as those who were hurt by it). It’s a painful part of history, but one that can’t be forgotten and one that shouldn’t be hidden. Hopefully, we’ve learned, as a nation, from our mistakes, and will continue to educate.
As to people having a difference of opinion and thinking differently than I do, I welcome it. I’d hate to be so close minded so as to blind myself to possibilities other than my own. I hope I NEVER “know” so much about history so as to tell everyone else that they’re wrong. I’ve been to other CW chatgroups, on-line memberships and e-groups that I’ve left because there’s always some that “know” more than any one else and they become very condescending. I can’t learn anything in that kind of environment. I’ve been coming to this website since the 1990’s WAY before the chat section, etc….I loved it then, and I love it today because it is informative and no one is at all condescending. My hat is off to all commentors who have always been cordial.
Perhaps you, in reality, didn’t insult me as much as I mis-interpreted your meaning and, in that, ended up insulting myself.
Anyway, in my opinion, I think I’ve said more than enough on the subject, so I’ll just kick back and watch.
To the administrators/moderators, Thanks for a great site that I’ve enjoyed for close to 10 years. To all member/commentors, thanks for teaching me and others! Thanks also for keeping differing points of view alive. With the exception of my tirade last week, everyone has ALWAYS been polite, posting some very well thought and well written posts on a variety of subjects.
Albert Sailhorst
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booklover
Member
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Bama, you are right that I need to explain my last post, but first let me say to Albert, I appreciate your comments and agree that we all can learn from each other. Most of the time, in this type of discussion, I either end up agreeing to disagree with someone and we remain friends or we never speak to each other again. I've lost some good friends that way. From your post I think we can agree to disagree.
Bama, there were a number of things that set me off, but only one was related to this board. I might have misread HankC's comments, but from what I gathered it seemed he was saying that the Confederate symbols were innocent and meaningless until they were taken over by Strom Thurmond and the Dixiecrats. That made me think of the old segregationist argument that Jim Crow was too entrenched in the Southern lifestyle to ever be ended, a notion shattered by C. Vann Woodward's "Strange Career of Jim Crow". I let my emotions get the better of me because I couldn't understand how anyone can think a symbol perpetuating anything as horrid as slavery could ever be considered innocent under any circumstance.
But what really made me angry was a friend who directed me to this link.
http://csagov.org/
In my mind, I connected that with this discussion and lost my cool. Guys, I'm sorry, but I cannot in good conscience suspend my feelings of 1)what the war was truly fought over and 2)that anyone could honestly believe it would be better to go back to it, with or without slavery. I don't know if anyone on this board agrees with what the website I mention above stands for, but I hope to God not.
Best
Rob
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javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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Well, I do think we should maybe let this thread die a peaceful death. Unless someone has something specific to the particular case posted by the original poster, I fear further debate about whether the flag represents racism or not will only inflame obviously deep-held passions on both sides, with neither side having a chance to change the mind of the other. This is too good a group to see it blow up over this.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10th, 2007 12:44 pm |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10th, 2007 10:14 pm |
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 06:28 pm |
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1stSgt P.
Member
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I am glad that this is resolved. I just recently found this forum. I don't want it to go away,or make this into a us/them because I would have taken the them side. Last edited on Sun Oct 14th, 2007 09:38 pm by 1stSgt P.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19th, 2007 09:01 pm |
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ole
Member
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Suspect that we're going to get along quite well 1st. Although your uniform isn't the right color.
ole
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20th, 2007 01:13 pm |
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. I do have to put on the blue suit every once in a while for an event
. We all do what we have to do
. Of course I have no pictures of that. I do in fact have a very good Federal impression. I do a Western Federal.
