View single post by javal1
 Posted: Thu Apr 20th, 2006 02:11 pm
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javal1
Grumpy Geezer


Joined: Thu Sep 1st, 2005
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We'll use this thread for the ongoing discussion started elsewhere. Because we have no way of transferring posts from one thread to another, here's the converation so far:

Shadowrebel: Indy,

There are descendants of the crew alive today and went to the burial. We are not talking about the Confederate flag, but the U. S. flag. Please re-read my post you used.


The Confederacy was a soverign country. It had every right to secede from the union, i.e. the 10th amendement to the Consitution and the Declaration of Independence. After the war Samual Chase, a Supreme Court Chief Justice, stated it would be a mistake to bring Jefferson Davis to trail because you might find out the South had a right to secede and was soverign nation.

If as you state the Rebels were "traitors" then when did we start using the American flag at the funerals of traitors? Using the American flag in the manner would by a large thing to ask not  "a small thing to ask".

Thank you for you comments

Regards

John



Indy: I used your post to bring up a dialogue. This thread has gone in all different directions. I asked legitimate questions that I didn't have the definitive answers for. I assume that there were no restrictions at the ceremony for Confederate flags. The subject of flying or not flying an American flag there, led me to wonder if there were restrictions on anything else. And as far as I know, each member of the crew, could in fact, be buried with a Confederate flag.

I'm not sure what you mean by "using" the American flag at the ceremony. I think we'll have to agree to disagree about that issue.

Secondly, the Confederate States of America was NOT a sovereign nation. They were never recognized as separate by the U.S. federal gov't. They never received foreign recognition. That recognition was required for the CSA to be considered a separate nation.

I don't believe you have your facts straight about Salmon Chase either, but I'm not going to get in a long discussion about it, nor about how the 10th Amendment does NOT grant the right to secede. I've still not heard of anyone that's been able to point out in the Constitution the procedure a state must go through in order to secede. If a state can just up and leave the union, at their whim, it seems hard to believe that we really have a legitimate republic.
Shadowrebel:   Indy,

I meant no disrespect to your use of my post. I thought you misunderstood it. Sorry.


 I agree this thread has gone in different directions. Which is not bad. You are right they were buried with the Confederate flag. Some family members did not what the U.S. flag used at the burial. This is not a frist. Many other war dead were buried without the U.S. flag being present. It should be up to the families. This is what I meant by using the American flag.

 I was unaware that for a nation to be soverign the U.S. govt. had to recognize it. The government has at times not recognize many nations. Nor does any nation have to recognize a nation to make it soverign.

 Justice Chase: Jefferson Davis refused to request a pardon because he wanted a public trial to prove that the Constitution provided for secession. S. Chase, Supreme Court Justice, said "we better not. A trial might conclude that the north invaded a sovereign nation." He may not have be Chief Justice at this time.

As I am sure you are aware, if the Constitution does not specify something it is a State right. Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Since secession is not covered by the Constitution no one can show you the procedure to secede. No one has shown me what stops a state from seceding. Since secession is not covered in the Constitution it is reserved as a state right, therefore it is up to the state to decide how to implement its' right, not the Constitution to tell the state how to secede. Most, if not all, the states that agreed to the creation of the Federal govt. and the Constitution did so with a clause to the effect the power of government could be taken back by the people. New York, in her resolutions of ratification, declared -- "That the powers of government may be resumed by the people, whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness:

Thank you for your post.

Savez:  Ulysess,

Here is a review about the author of one of your sources.

link

Didn't Nathan Bedford Forrest leave the Klan and ordered it disbanded when it became violent? I have read somewhere, I can't recall, that his wife had something to do with him leaving the Klan.


Also, Eric Foner is a leftist, Marxist weirdo.

Indy: With the Supremacy Clause already in place in the Constitution the 10th Amendment hardly gives states the right to secede. Even if it did, can you show me where it's mentioned in the Declarations by the states that separated? I'm not even sure that the term secession was even used. IMO, if it were clear that states had a right to separate, it would be clearly written into the Constitution. The only way out I see is through the Amendment process and with, I believe a 3/4 favorable vote of ALL the states. The southern states did not try any of this, they just up and left, making it seem as though our Union, our United States, is nothing more than a loose collection of states.


Chase's opinion was that Davis had already been punished for his actions, thus any other trial would be unconstitutional. Not to mention the fact that Davis would have to be tried in Virginia or possibly in Alabama and with a jury full of Virginians or Alabamians.


Though post-war 1869, the case of White v. Texas ruled against the legality of secession. It's the only Supreme Court case to make such a judgment. The fact that is was post Civil War is probably moot, as nothing had changed in the Constitution from 1860-1869, save for the 13th and 14th Amendments. Since Salmon Chase was Chief Justice at this time, it seems that would run counter to what you are trying to say.

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