View single post by indy19th
 Posted: Tue Jul 25th, 2006 02:51 pm
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Shadowrebel wrote: Indy,

Apparently you do not think Lincoln was a racist? See the above quotes from him.

Looking just at what you wrote about the 3 proposed amendments, no. Those amendments don't necessarily point to a racist. Beyond that, Lincoln was a product of his time, but to me it's a little misguided to call him racist and be done with it. His relations with blacks was clearly complex. Most blacks that people were in contact with had no education, so it would have been very easy to dismiss them as something less. The quotes you posted from the Douglas-Lincoln debates can't be easily dismissed either. One, the debates were in front of many people from the southern part of Illinois, and many Kentuckian transplants, the majority of which were anti-black. Lincoln was still a politician. That part of his debate was to remove himself from what Douglas had tried to paint him as. Clearly, if Lincoln had any hopes of being elected, he couldn't be all gungho about telling an all white audience about giving ALL blacks equal opportunities. Not only did Lincoln help end slavery, as far as I know he's the only President in office who had even given it serious discussion. He also was the first President to invite a black man to an inauguration celebration (F. Douglass.) Finally, his last public speech talked about black voting rights. His murder by Booth can be at least partly attributed to that speech. Booth, "...nigger citizenship...That's the last speech he'll ever make." I do find it interesting that it's almost always Lincoln's views on race our discussed, but not those in the Confederacy. A Confederacy that was formed to continue the practice of enslaving blacks. Senator Robert M. T. Hunter of Virginia: "There is not a respectable system of civilization known to history whose foundations were not laid in the institution of domestic slavery."                                                                                Atlanta Confederacy, 1860: "We regard every man in our midst an enemy to the institutions of the South, who does not boldly declare that he believes African slavery to be a social, moral, and political blessing."          Robert M.T. Hunter, Senator from Virginia, "What did we go to war for, if not to protect our property?"          Methodist Rev. John T. Wightman, preaching at Yorkville, South Carolina: "The triumphs of Christianity rest this very hour upon slavery; and slavery depends on the triumphs of the South . . . This war is the servant of slavery."                                                  
As for "spliting hairs" no I said Lincoln did not free the slaves, any slaves. He freed the slaves in Southern held areas which he had no control over, he might as well have freed the slaves in the Brazil and the West Indes. In areas he had control of he did nothing to free the slaves.
On the surface (it did, however, literally free a few thousand), however, more importantly, it gave tens of thousands the will to free themselves. Something they hadn't had to that level before then. And free themselves they did.

Evidently you're overrating this ruling from 1803 as I've not seen it mentioned as the end all be all of whether or not the President can't suspend Habeas.

I do not overrate this ruling since it shows that "the end all be all" of suspension of Habeas, is the Constitution, which clearly allows only Congress to suspend, not the President.
I'm not convinced. If it was the cut and dry, there would have been no discussion whatsoever as to whether the President could or could not suspend it.

"bringing them safely through that conflict" Safely at the cost of over 600,000 lives. Not what I would call safely.
Are you holding Lincoln solely responsible for 600,000 deaths? The side that rebelled, started the conflict, and wouldn't give up well past their chance to win, costing even more lives, doesn't hold some responsibility? Is FDR responsible for all the lives lost in WWII post 12/7/1941? Very few predicted that the war would last 4 years. Those few that did were thought to be crazy.

Last edited on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 03:09 pm by

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