Civil War Interactive Discussion Board Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register


civil war rifle - Introductions - About this Forum - Start Here - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
 Moderated by: javal1
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Sun Oct 21st, 2007 05:46 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
1st Post
eastwm
Member
 

Joined: Sun Oct 21st, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 1
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I am new to this site,just wondered if you all have ever seen a rifle that the firing cap

is on the bottom of this rifle,there is a note taped to the stock,that 1862,but there

are no letters are numbers on the gun



 Posted: Sun Oct 21st, 2007 07:26 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
2nd Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I have seen modern muzzle-loaders with the nipple and hammer on the underside. For it to be of modern manufacture, it would be well marked (unless someone polished them off.

If you were interested in purchasing such a weapon, do examine the provenance very carefully. Individual gunsmiths were known to cobble up prototypes, and even to provide a weapon to a soldier--nothing is impossible. It is not shown in "Echoes of Glory."

ole



 Posted: Mon Oct 22nd, 2007 02:29 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
3rd Post
Michael C. Hardy
Member
 

Joined: Tue Sep 25th, 2007
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 48
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

There were a couple of manufactures making “Underhammer Rifles”, mostly in New England, but in a few other places in the 1830s and 1840s. There is a book Underhammer Guns by Herschel C. Logan, but alas, I do not have a copy. More recently, Hopkins and Allen were making reproductions.

Regards,
Michael
http://www.michaelchardy.com



 Posted: Mon Oct 22nd, 2007 08:09 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
4th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

H&A were making the repros I had a fleeting recollection of. The rifle you refer to may well be a CW ERA personal type arm and, as such, it may have some value as an antique. As a CW arm, provenance will be difficult to provide.

You might considider some New Englander crossed the wide prairie with her husband, Ike, and his hunting rifle.

ole



 Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 01:23 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
5th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1065
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Ole is pretty much spot on, there were some underhammer rifles that were exceptionally accurate that MIGHT have been used as a sharpshooter arm. I do not believe any underhammer was ever adopted or officially used by the US Army but I'm away from my library at the moment.



 Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 12:39 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
6th Post
Michael C. Hardy
Member
 

Joined: Tue Sep 25th, 2007
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 48
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Has anyone ever seen one of these underhammer rifles up close? I was at a sale once that had one, but I was interested in something else. What size is the cone (nipple)? I would be worried about dropping the cap. That has happen to me several times, even after crimping. I also wonder what kind of safety the underhammer has. I cannot think of any percussion arm that does not have a half cock. But, if the underhammer is at half cock, what keep the cap from falling off?

Regards,
Michael
http://www.michaelchardy.com



 Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 03:47 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
7th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Can't imagine a nipple that didn't fit the caps in production at the time. My impression was that the caps fit tightly and wouldn't just "fall" off. Consider the revolvers. If the caps wouldn't fall off 5 nipples when the 6th was being fired, then they would not fall off a bottom nipple.



 Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 06:25 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
8th Post
Michael C. Hardy
Member
 

Joined: Tue Sep 25th, 2007
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 48
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Caps do fall off, even on revolvers. That is why we give caps a little squeeze at the open end before placing them on the nipple, and they still fall off on occasion. If it happens today, with standard production methods, then image 150 years ago, when those production methods were not quite so standard. It was considered a modern miracle, 150 years ago, when the parts between rifled-muskets were interchangeable. On the other end of the spectrum, both my .45 cal. Kentucky pistol and my 61 Springfield seem to have larger cones. When I use that weapon at reenactments, I usually carry a small pair of plyers in my pocket, simply for taking off caps that have not separated when struck by the hammer. I do not have this problem with my reproduction Enfield or 42 Springfield. I guess that is why I use the 61 Springfield the least.

Regards,
Michael
http://www.michaelchardy.com



 Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 10:39 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
9th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1065
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

It wasn't an issue in the 19th century largely because the quality of the caps was actually better than that of today in much tthe same way the Italian bastardations of the P53 & M1861 are in NO way even the equal to the origianl arms.

There is an enromous difference between the performance of the original arms and the poor imitaions of the Armi Sport & EuroArms.

The 2-3 original underhammers I have examined (never actually seen one of the re pops up close) have a very tight half cock w/ nowhere for the cap to go.



 Posted: Wed Oct 24th, 2007 12:11 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
10th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I'll leave it there. Closest I've come to a percussion arm is to look at a repop Hawkins--and to admire Johan's whatever he was carrying that day. Never had one, never shot one.

However, one last thought. For each 40 rounds issued, 48 caps were provided. I don't think the extra 8 were intended to replace those that fell off.

Sorry. Got to fire up Johan one more time. The troopers under Forrest and Mosby and other legitimate hell-raisers carried at least one if not three six shooters (discounting the sawed-off). Were these guys concerned about the caps falling off? I don't think so.

ole



 Posted: Wed Oct 24th, 2007 12:31 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
11th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1065
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

THe cap is small and easily fumbled while handling. As a note I can't ever remember losing a cap off of my Miroku until this last season when I bought a big batch of cheap caps... never, never again. Misfires, no sparks and repeatedle losing caps off the nipple.

Went back to my german caps, no more problems.

Ole it was an M1861 Springfield by Miroku... probably the only real quality M1861 repop out there and they stopped making them.



 Posted: Wed Oct 24th, 2007 02:19 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
12th Post
j harold 587
Member


Joined: Tue Jun 12th, 2007
Location: Wilmington, Ohio USA
Posts: 166
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I think Johan has the answer that the quality of cap would have prevented the problem of falling off. I also read a civilian account of CSA calvary having spare cylingers loaded and primed (capped) on a wire attached to the saddle for quick reloading.

Under hammer percussion rifles were also weak in the stock due to the location of the trigger and lock mechanisn. consequently were usually of a small caliber. a squirril rifle not a sharpshooter rifle. 



 Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 12:49 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
13th Post
Dixie Girl
Southern Belle


Joined: Thu Oct 25th, 2007
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 850
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Hey eastwm I am new to this site to. If you see all the smiley faces on my introduction please don't think I am that entheusiastic. Trust me I'm Not it takes a lot to get me excited. If you have read any good books please let me know I love to read.



____________________
War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


 Current time is 10:21 am
Top




UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.3835 seconds (9% database + 91% PHP). 26 queries executed.