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 Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 11:41 am
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Johan Steele
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ijontichy wrote:

Child molestation & rape is barbarism.  No excuse for it.
Yes, I do believe them worse offenses than murder because of what they force the victim to survive, and I readily admit this likely has to do w/ knowing several of the victims.
What if you knew the child abuser? For the sake of argument, what if your own eighteen-year-old son (a shy & awkward lad, with few friends, never had a girlfriend) in his role as supervisor of a church-youth-group camping trip sexually abused a ten-year-old girl under his charge? Would you be willing to "provide the rope" in this case? To turn a commonly used argument on its head, why should I take your answer seriously if this situation (or something like it) has never happened to you? Until it does (of course I hope it never does), maybe I should ignore your opinion on the matter. Do you see the point I'm trying to make here? I'm not purposely trying to provoke you.  I have known an abuser, and I would gladly have provided the rope for the man.  If he had been my son... I would have provided the rope and volunteered for the hanging party.  Why do you insist on making excuses... never had a girlfriend?  You're kidding right.  There is no excuse... she asked for it or she provoked it by the way she was dressed all are despicable arguments.

A child molestor is not a human being, they are something else, something considerably less.
On the contrary, they are human, all too human. Murder and abuse is part of human nature, it is part of your generational lineage. There is no society or moderately-sized group of humans in recorded history that has been free from it. This may be a disturbing fact to consider, but there is no real excuse to shut your eyes from it. What we can do as a society is try our best to minimise it. One way to do that, I advocate, is to sharply distinguish between violent and non-violent crimes in our justice system, particular the way we punish crimes. But I already touched on this in my previous post. Another way is to reinstall the values of moderation, restraint, temperance, and politeness that have been wiped away by the modern era of indvidualism.  Has it worked?  Were child molestation and rape more or less common in the past w/ more severe punishments?  Were they all but non existant in cultures where the punishments was quite final?  The answer to both questions is less.  Look to the Apache punishment for rape... guaranteed to scare any nutter straight.  I'm sorry but the idea that either rape or child molestation is a non violent crime... would be almost funny if it wasn't so sick.  I have known both victim & abuser... who should I sympathize w/?  Your reasoning would have me sympathize w/ the abuser... I'm sorry but no.  The victim deserves better.  The problem w/ moderation & tolerance is that we end up w/ organizations like NAMBLA, advocy groups and passionate defenders of rapists and child molestors.
If an individual ever hurt my child, god child neice etc and got away w/ it.  I assure you I would willingly kill the man so that justice might be done; I would then do my time.  Responsability.  I would have failed to protect my child, the least I could do is avenge them and pay the price for my failure.  So is it better to destroy three lives?  As I said earlier, I would willingly arrange a meeting w/ God for the man and take my punishment.  


Perhaps you would be benefited by looking at the number of repeat offenses; there is a reason the Sex Offender Database is readily accesed vis the internet.  It is because we are too tolerant of depravity.

There is a train of thought that long term incarceration is the answer... no deal w/ them like the rabid dogs they are.  Incarceration... do you understand that more is spent on a single inmate in a year than the average working man makes in the same period.  A waste of money on an individual that doesn't deserve it.



 Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 12:00 pm
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javal1
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It's an emotional issue. Let's discuss it using facts and opinions, but let's also steer away from the personal level.



 Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 02:11 pm
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David White
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I don't want to put my dog in this fight but I find it curious that sex offenders continue to "pay" for their crime long after their so called "debt to society is paid."  We don't have a National Murderers Registry but we do have a Sex offenders registry.  If their debt is paid, why make them continue to wear a Scarlet SO for the rest of their life?

My bigger problem is the payback of their debt is so small today.



 Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 11:27 pm
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Johan Steele
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I will recuse myself from further comments on this issue. I apologize if I have offended.

Since 1986 my father and step mother have been foster parents. I have known many of those children; several were emotionaly, physically or sexually abused. In my life I have known a child molestor and his victim as well as been a volunteer at a rape recovery shelter, my job was to teach self defence. I have seen the effect of sexual crimes like rape and child molestation they are horrid crimes leaving the victim scarred for life both physically and mentally. Those who perpertrate the crimes... deserve no sympathy and no mercy, IMO they deserve the death penalty.

David, they deserve a scarlet letter w/ redemption only after they can offend no more. Their victims carry their wounds with them to the grave.



 Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 01:24 am
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booklover
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I would be interested to know other's opinion on what should happen to the girl I mentioned who killed her own infant?

Best
Rob



 Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 01:36 am
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ole
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We don't have a National Murderers Registry but we do have a Sex offenders registry. 
That has troubled me as well, David. Once time is served, the perp ought to be considered to have paid his debt. But I suspect that most parents of young chilldren would prefer to have any released convict living next door rather than an ex-molester -- if there is such a thing.

I can understand why a person could be driven to steal, cheat or murder--even rape. But the man who preys on children is a despiccable thing to be stricken from the rolls of free citizens. Life in prison or $100 in chemicals, I don't want to see him ever again mingling with other than an incarcerated society.

I believe I mentioned that "molester" is an expansive category ranging from that nice quiet boy whose curiousity leads him to strip a child naked to the likes of a John Cooey. It is not very likely that we'll ever get a standard codification of degree of offense. It remains in the hands of the state's laws and the judge's interpretation. Meanwhile, I'll have to lean Johan's way: "Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord." I'm quite happy to give up that right and place the perp quite immediately in front of the Lord's bench.

ole

 



 Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 03:49 pm
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David White
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Booklover:

You do not include enough information for me to voice my opinion on your murder.  Why did she do that, did she panic and screw up or was it a cold calculated act done with malice?  Motivation or apparant motivation would affect my decision on the proper punishement for the crime.



 Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 04:41 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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My two cents:

Through my job, I have to "help" Sex Offenders (among other people) find work. It amazes me how much the State will bend over backwards to provide extra resources, additional "benefits" and programs to help these people, while, on the other hand, there are few, if any, special programs to help the victims find jobs, get housing (other than, perhaps, a temporary shelter) etc.

I've got one offender who served 11 years for violently (and with multiple victims) sexually assualt kids. He claims to be "cured". When he comes in, I make sure my desk is free of my photos of my wife and kid. He disgusts me.

Oh, but he served 11 years, he's paid his debt!!....Do the victims feel repaid? Are their  feelings (feelings of shame, being violated, feeling as though they didn't fight back hard enough, perhaps feeling themselves guilty) returned? Do they sleep free of horrible nightmares? Do they return to trusting certain family members? Do they stop trembling when a stranger is behind them in line at the grocery store?

The debt they have to repay is unpayable.



 Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 05:10 pm
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ole
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You must be a good man, Albert. I'd likely (unconsciously, of course) see that any job he got was the nost distateful I could find. Shattering a life ought to be as bad as taking one.

ole



 Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 05:41 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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Ole,

The thought did cross my mind. However, it is my duty as a public servant to give the same treatment to him as to any other.

On the other hand, I don't have to do anything in regards to finding him a distastefull job; his criminal record (and the nature of that record) does that job for me.

Is this bad of me to feel this way??...Not in my book. He made decisions to engage in behavior that now affects his life. As I said before, his debt is one that can not be repaid. He made his bed, now he has to lay in it. I feel that way about theives, liars, drug dealers, murderers. If they can get their life straight and never do crimes again, I am all for helping them. But, they've chosen their path for themselves.



 Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 12:44 am
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booklover
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David,

I'm sorry but I can't agree that the motivation matters. The fact is the girl gave birth, allowed her baby to die in a toilet and then threw it in a dumpster. The reason I don't think motivation matters coincides with the general belief (as I see it) on this board that a child molester's motivation (it happened to him as a child is often the biggest predictor of future behavior) doesn't matter either. As I understand the general consensus of the board members, it is enough to say it is a crime against a child and that makes the perpetrator unfit to live in society, literally. My whole point in wanting opinions is to point out that if we are going to kill everyone who commits a crime against a child, then the woman should be put to death as well. If we make allowances for her, something doesn't add up.

By the way, I do agree that the sex offender registry is bothersome as well. If it is to be done, it must be done across the board.

Best
Rob



 Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 02:41 am
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Johnny Huma
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On the lady that had her child and let it die in the toilet and then threw it in a dumpster is a hard call because many factors come into play.
1. How old is the lady...A young girl who was scared that her parents did not know she was pregnent to begin with? If so FEAR may have come into play here.
2. Did she do it out of malice..? Did she intend to kill the child because she did not want a child..?
3. Did she premeditate the murder..?
4. Was there ouside influences such as a boyfriend telling her to do this..
5. Does the girl acutally have some mental problems or was it a murder commited with a same mind..?

Too many factors to include to make a clear call on this..
Another factor that comes into play is that she killed her own child..That does not make it right but she did not kill someone elses child...

It is hard to compare the two types of individuals...
A child molester does premeditate what he is going to do..
And then follows it out...Not all of them are preying on other peoples children but some on thier own..
Is this a sickness..? I am sure it is because normal people do not have those kinds of thoughts..
I agree with the fact that murderers should also have some type of trackable system that would let people know if they are moving into the neighborhood as child molesters also should..
A lot of child molesters also become murderers just for the fact that the child may turn them out to someone..That is what makes it a double threat to our children.
The victims will live with what happened to them and live in fear thier whole lives..The molester will live with it too but the difference is it did not bother him to commit the act so there is no punishment there.
If the courts cant keep this kind locked behind bars for life then I am in favor of the death penelty for them..
If we feel it harsh to kill the person then we need laws to keep them locked behind bars..Although as I stated before I
dont want to keep him there on my buck but if I have to pay that buck so another child will not be abused then I will gladly give it up..

Huma



 Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 03:21 am
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younglobo
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Killing is wrong the bible says so which is what i believe so unless you are serving in a time of war (and I could point out verses) there is no excuse for any human to murder another period no matter the age , so does then the Bible destroy itself by saying a eye for an eye no i dont think so . We were created by a loving just God that wanted to protect us , but we are sinners and that is were the whole problem started.

We have come to far as a society when we scew from what we were founded on. Johan makes a point for me when he pointed out that alot of these kids are foster kids no mom or dad to watch over them and teach them, and protect them,(victim and future/obductor alike ) luckly there are folks out thier like his parents that fill that gap ( thank God) or we would be worse off. When a society  has as many fatherless children and divorces and all the other junk it will implode on itself , we all know this anyone read "fall of the Roman Empire" for goodness sake it  dosn't take a genius to add this up . Until recent history divorces where way down and fathers stayed put that is why we have the saying "shotgun weddin", plus society punished the villian swiftly and the line was drawn and seldom crossed not to say they didnt have problems but they were alot less than modern times.

Look back and get back to the way our forefathers did it worked pretty well why try to fix it.

IMO

to support my therory

"Is he "the loser", or is he Dad?"
by Teri Stoddard

One million children in America are involved in a new divorce annually, as
of 1997, according to divorcemagazine.com, and The Children's Fund reports
that one in three American children is born to unmarried parents (2004 Key
Facts About American Children).

From---"Is he "the loser", or is he Dad?" by Teri Stoddard, October 15, 2005


 

Two-Parent Families Growing Scarcer - U.S. Study
1.51 p.m. ET (1902 GMT) November 24, 1999



"Marriage has declined as the central institution under which households
are organized and children are raised,'' Smith said, noting the survey
found that 62 percent of working-class adults reported being married in
the 1994-98 period, down from 80 percent in the 1972-77 period.

"People marry later and divorce and cohabitate more. A growing
proportion of children has been born outside of marriage. Even within
marriage the changes have been profound as more and more women have
entered the labor force and gender roles have become more homogenous
between husbands and wives,'' Smith said.


About half of children now live in a household with their original
parents, down from nearly three-quarters of children living in such
households in 1972.

Parents' attitudes toward their children have changed as well, with more
looking for them to take responsibility for themselves. For example,
more parents listed hard work as a desirable trait in their children
above obedience.

My point from this long post for which i appoligize is we are doing this all ourselfs, older folks on the board who taught you right from wrong, who taught  black and white not shades of grey your mom and dad thats who. Men who taught you to be a man , dad or grandpa . Most kids dont have those know and we have no one to blame except the man in the mirror . We must fess up to our own screw ups and fix em.

)(_ off sorry you all lit a fire under me.



 Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 09:53 am
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ijontichy
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Johan Steele wrote:

If he had been my son... I would have provided the rope and volunteered for the hanging party.
Frankly, I take such claims with a grain of salt. One can never predict what one's reaction would be in a horrible situation like that. But, OK, you've given your answer -- thank you. In retrospect I have to admit it's probably not a very useful example.

Why do you insist on making excuses... never had a girlfriend?

The "never had a girlfriend" bit was merely added to flesh out the hypothetical example. There was honestly no other reason for it. I don't insist on making excuses and I don't know how you have gleaned such an impression from what I wrote.

The problem w/ moderation & tolerance is that we end up w/ organizations like NAMBLA...
Nowhere have I mentioned tolerance. Certainly not tolerance of child molestation. I have mentioned moderation (and many other virtues that you chose to ignore), but a pocket dictionary could tell you that it is not the same as tolerance. So you are arguing with a strawman of your own creation.



 Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 12:22 pm
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Johan Steele
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ijontichy wrote: Johan Steele wrote:

If he had been my son... I would have provided the rope and volunteered for the hanging party.
Frankly, I take such claims with a grain of salt. One can never predict what one's reaction would be in a horrible situation like that. But, OK, you've given your answer -- thank you. In retrospect I have to admit it's probably not a very useful example.  The child molestor I knew was a man I once might have called friend... I would gladly have provided both the rope AND volunteered to be on the hanging party.  Take it w/ all the grains of salt you wish.  You have your answer.

Why do you insist on making excuses... never had a girlfriend?

The "never had a girlfriend" bit was merely added to flesh out the hypothetical example. There was honestly no other reason for it. I don't insist on making excuses and I don't know how you have gleaned such an impression from what I wrote.  Not as I have read it & yes, despite the disclaimer, I do see it as a purposeful provocation.  Looks like a defense or excuse for the indifensible.

The problem w/ moderation & tolerance is that we end up w/ organizations like NAMBLA...
Nowhere have I mentioned tolerance. Certainly not tolerance of child molestation. I have mentioned moderation (and many other virtues that you chose to ignore), but a pocket dictionary could tell you that it is not the same as tolerance. So you are arguing with a strawman of your own creation.  Moderation leads to "tolerance."  I "chose" to ignore nothing.  As to pocket dictionaries...

"I will recuse myself from further comments on this issue. I apologize if I have offended."  Apparently you "chose" to ignore that.  I've stated I will recuse myself from this conversation as keeping civil w/ those who... I think you understand.  Please have the courtesy not to engage me on this subject again.



 Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 12:23 pm
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Johan Steele
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Double Post

Last edited on Wed Oct 31st, 2007 12:26 pm by Johan Steele



 Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 02:49 pm
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David White
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Booklover:

In the case of the girl many things would enter into my decsion if the information was allowed by the judge.  Was this her first pregnency?  Was she trying to hide it?  What was her family life like?  I would go easier on a 19 year old girl with her first pregnency versus a 29 year old with her third pregnency.

If you don't think the punishment should be different for a young girl who, I am guessing, panicked and did something wrong and stupid by murdering a newborn child, versus a convenience store robber who has the store's money and then tells his accomplices we need to kill everyone in the store so we don't have any witnesses, versus someone who imprisons and tortures their victim for days before ultimately killing them, then your view is outside the mainstream of American society.  I agree that sin is sin but there are degrees of it. 

The good news for you is prosecutors and defenders will always strike you off the jury list if you think the punishment shouldn't take the circumstances of the crime into account. 

How do you feel about hate crimes, my guess is you would not support such laws if murder is murder? 



 Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 05:03 pm
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j harold 587
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I do not feel that the death penalthy for crimes other than murder or in certain cases attempted murder (If the intention was murder and was premeditated, but for whatever resason it was not completed) is an appropriate sentence. I do beleive in capital punishment.

As a society we pay for safety services. Police, fire, health inspections, regulators for  food processing ect. So if we can agree that a pedifile is sick and can not be cured, how is it different from a terminal cancer patient who we make comfortable untill nature runs its course. In that case the individual is kept away from society at a cost, but still not exicuted.

Young blood makes a good point that society must not murder as well as individuals must not.  HOWEVER society still has a burden to protect ithe inocent.



 Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 06:12 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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My two more cents, then I'll leave the discussion to the lawyers:

The Bible, while condeming killing of another human except in battle/self-defense, also says:

Genesis 9:6

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." **Supports execution for Murder

 

Deuteronomy 22: 25

25 “But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.” **Supports execution for rape (would or could this extend to those sexually abusing children?)

 

Romans 13:4

4”For he (the ruler or government) is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath”. **God grants governments the authority to execute.

 

Eccles. 8:11 (Translated from King James version)

“When a sentence against a crime isn't carried out quickly, people are encouraged to commit crimes.” **Punishment should be swift, so as to be a deterrent to crime

 

Since Romans 13:4 grants governemnt the right to execute, then the Death penalty is condoned by God. It is for us, the society, to elect officials who will rule and punish wisely and justly. For millenia, citizens have searched for the wise and just ruler. No matter who is on the throne or who is in office, there will be critics and opponants, so there is no truly, 100% just and wise ruler on Earth.

So, what do we do? We act accordingly in society and we expect others to act accordingly as well. As a society, we are obligated to each other to respect life, liberty, property, etc. For those who deviate from these expectations and obligations, there is a perscribed law dictating what should be done with them. In some instances fines are imposed, in other instances, prison terms served or  death visited upon the those who do not live within the laws of that society.

 

The debate, I suspect, will continue.



 Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 07:03 pm
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younglobo
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)(90 Albert great post 

My post was meant to show that  we should/could stop the problem before it started, by installing values and morals at a young age, guess i missed the mark i was tired and it was late. The post also implies that I am anti death penalty which i am not .

Booklover .. to me the mother killed her own child, which if ever have been around a newborn i cant understand how she could do it . Human life is human life no matter if it is newborn or 90 a individual that takes anothers voluntarily should pay with his/her own.

 

Last edited on Wed Oct 31st, 2007 07:11 pm by younglobo



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