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 Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 02:48 am
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JoanieReb
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"...as one of the South's plantation elite, Hampton could have been effete, a spoiled brat, a wastrel and playboy, but instead he took responsibility to fight for what he believed..."

Ah, thank you, Fan!  Once again you found my words for me.  I wanted to make that point, that  he led and fought fearlessly and, if you will, "gallently" (sorry if that seems too romanticized) despite his wealth and privilege. 

And thank you, Susan, for all your information and insight.

Joanie

Last edited on Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 02:51 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 02:59 am
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JoanieReb
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Ah, Susan,

I had started to post this:

I normally don't post things without looking them up and being certain, but I cain't even think of where to look to confirm this right now, so I'll just say, "I believe it was Wade Hampton whom..." and hope there is someone out there who can confirm or correct me in this:

I beleive it was Wade Hampton whom saw one of his sons shot to death while they were in heated batlle.  He took the time only to assign someone to take the body back to the rear before resuming battle.  He then saw his other son shot but could not stop for this, and did not know until the battle was over if that son lived or died.

Then I decided that I really shouldn't, I must look it up first.  And immediately after cutting it,  You made your very educational post, which included this statement:

Hampton was named Chief of Cavalry eventually.  In defense of Richmond in Oct of 1864 one son was killed and another was wounded.  He was a Yankee hater the rest of his life. 

Thank You!  Even with Google,  I would've spent I-don't-know-how-long trying to find those facts - Thanks again for your very helpful and educational post.

Joanie




 Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 03:14 am
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susansweet
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Joanie when I travel I make a notebook.  I put everything I want to see in the notebook.  I take notes on everything.  It says where what when and why I want to see it.  If it involves a historical person I don't know much about I look though my collection of magazines and take notes on the person.  I was really lucky that time in finding this article about Hampton.  It made my visit to Columbia much more interesting having the back story of why only the Hampton Preston home was still standing .  Wasn't actually Wade Hampton III home, but Logan was going to burn it after he was done with it .  An Ursulane Nun put a stop to that . She had a paper from Sherman saying she could have any house she wanted because the Convent had been accidently burned. 

The notebook also has room to write down things I find along the way.  A poem about Francis Marion the Swamp Fox of Revolutionary times that was on the entrance to the grave yard where he is buried in South Carolina.   People's names I meet along the way etc etc.  Iam now working on my notebook for Muster and the places my friends and I will go after muster --- Savannah and St. Augustine .

Susan



 Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 03:32 am
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ole
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Wade Hampton III was indeed one of those who put his money where his mouth was. He was one of the wealthiest planters in the entire south and he saddled up and fought -- very well -- for what he believed.

ole



 Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 03:44 am
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JoanieReb
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You're an inspiration, Susan!  Seriously. 

Along with everything else, to be able to pull an almost mind-boggling, but certainly not universally-known fact like this:

" Wasn't actually Wade Hampton III home, but Logan was going to burn it after he was done with it .  An Ursulane Nun put a stop to that . She had a paper from Sherman saying she could have any house she wanted because the Convent had been accidently burned. "

out of your hat, is, to use an over-worked word, "awesome". 

And, these are facts not from your at-home reading, but from your travels and experience.  How cool is that?   Like I said, inspiring.

I always want to read biographies, but, as you say, "so many books, so little time", and it is always seems more expedient and necessary to me to read historical accounts of the war or of particular battles than to read a biography.  Almost like a biography is a big indulgance, can I afford it?  Also, it is really important to choose a good biography, one written with insight and integrity.  Just choosing the "best biography" can be overwhelming....Anyway, I end up developing my ideas of the principle players in the CW from varied accounts of the war and individual campaigns and battles.  (exception - I love to read soldier's first-hand accounts, like from dairies and letters. These are usually quick reads.)

I've been dying to read a biography of Wade Hampton.  But I still haven't read one of Jackson, or read Grant's memoirs....sigh.  So many books, so little time (we need to expand that into a theme-song for you!).... 

Once again, my thanks,

Joanie

Last edited on Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 03:47 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 04:11 am
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susansweet
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I think I read that in Blue and Gray the one on Coumbia that I used for research on the houses I wanted to see in Columbia. 

I read more Biographies than anything else .  I am interested more in the individual people who fought the war than the grand battles.   My book group at the Drum is reading the complete  memoirs of Sherman over the summer .  800 pages. 

People like that Nun are the people I find so interesting.  Standing up to Sherman and Logan.  Always knew nuns were tough. 

Susan



 Posted: Mon Mar 24th, 2008 01:16 am
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HankC
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Hampton is one of those generals that managed to be at the right place at the right time without ever being anywhere at a critical time...


HankC



 Posted: Mon Mar 24th, 2008 10:46 pm
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JoanieReb
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That's an interesting theory, Hank C.  I'd be interested in hearing (reading?) you expound on it.

Thanks,

Joanie

 



 Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 02:26 pm
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Don
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HankC,

I'm not sure that I agree with you on that one. he gave Sheridan all that he wanted in a couple of battles, and may have been the Confederacy's overall best cavalry leader in the east. Despite all of Fitz Lee's politicking during and after the war....

Joanie,

Edward Longacre has a bio out on Hampton that you can pick up on Amazon pretty cheaply. I haven't read that one, but if it's like his others it will be a really good introduction to Hampton.



 Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 02:28 pm
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HankC
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I'd have to see a list of Hampton's military acccomplishments and how they shaped the course of battles, campaigns and the war.

Unluckily, I have been unable to find this list ;)


HankC



 Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 05:18 pm
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Don
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And you've caught me in a busy week where I don't have time to look them up for you, doggone it! 8^P How abut an IOU?



 Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 07:14 pm
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HankC
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here is a brief Hampton resume:

1861 - raised and equipped the Hampton Legion
First Manassas - wounded
Seven Pines - wounded
Gettysburg - wounded
May 1864 - takes command of the ANV cavalry corps
Trevilian Station
Beefsteak Raid
sent to the Carolinas to recruit and defend
restored white rule to South Carolina following Radical Reconstruction


HankC



 Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 09:09 pm
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JoanieReb
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I think that the number and importance of his cavalry raids are not represented above, especially those of 1862.  I'm going on memory right now though - I'm working away from home without books to support me today.

I believe that at first Bull-nassas, he was instrumental to Jackson's success (and thus the attainment of Stonewall's nickname, as well ;)).  Then took one of several of his wounds to the head while over-running a Yankee artillery station and capturing some cannons.

Also, I think his woundings rarely interfered with his leading and fighting;  in the fighting outside of G-Burg, I believe that only his thrid or fourth wound brought him off the field.  Mostly, he just dealt with them without dismounting and continued fighting.

Recruiting while the Siege of Peterburg was taking place, and the Beefsteak Raid, should not be underestimated.

His hand-to-hand combat abilites deserve commenting on.

Well, time to wrap things up here and return home, where I can pull out some books....

Last edited on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 12:08 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 02:57 am
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JoanieReb
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I'm making a list and checking it twice of Wade III's career highlights.

The Battle of Hawe's Shop didn't make HankC's list, and I just wanted to throw it out now, as I think it fits the criteria of being in a critical place at a critical time, and it also decidedly helped shape a battle/campaign.

Just a couple of quotes from Wikpedia for now, addressing Hampton's withdrawl there:

 (Another factor was that Hampton had just received intelligence from prisoners on the location of two Union corps, which meant that his reconnaissance mission had been successfully completed.)

Since the Confederates withdrew, the battle was a technical Union victory, but at a high cost. Hampton had delayed the Union advance for seven hours and General Lee received the valuable intelligence he had sought. This information caused him to shift the Army of Northern Virginia to a new blocking position at Cold Harbor.  (italics mine)

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Haw's_Shop]

Anyway, a general computer search for The Battle of Hawe's Shop,  aka Haw's Shop, can give all the details.  (Interestly, John Huff, whom fatally shot JEB Stuart about 2 weeks before, was killed there.)

 

 

Last edited on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 03:06 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Sun Mar 30th, 2008 05:07 am
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Kentucky_Orphan
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Once again joining the party late, as seems more and more the trend with time such a valuable commodity at the present.

Seems like enough has been said on the subject about what makes a great general great through the ages. As to the question of Generals transcending their time and place in being "great" regardless of what time they are put in, I don't think I saw what I believe to be the most important component in making this either true or untrue: Political WILL of the populance. The will of the people at home to support and/or of those same to fight is without a doubt the most important factor.

So what if Ghengis was well suited to fight in Iraq if those people (in this case American citizens) are unwilling to support his methods of warfare? As bad as many American citizens react to the idea of a certain prison camp in Cuba, how much support do you think Mr. Khan would have with his "interesting" style of warfare?

What about the Italians during WW2? Who knows, if their people were as ready and willing to fight as say, the Gernmans, we might be throwing Italianames into the mix with Rundstedt, Rommel, Montgomery, Patton, and Zhukov?

Men like Forrest could be argued to be an anachronism of their day, a remider of warfare (in the European sense) of days past. Ironic,in that Forrest would be better suited, most likely, to warfare in the present?

 



 Posted: Sun Mar 30th, 2008 03:48 pm
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Good point, Orphan. But, like luck, can the will of the people be considered a characteristic of a general? In the days when a king also led his troops into battle, it might have been a major factor. Grant, Lee, and others could influence the will of the people only by winning.

Copperheads were gaining political power in the north until the summer of '63 when the northern citizen began to notice that a victorious end was in sight.

Just a thought.

ole



 Posted: Sun Mar 30th, 2008 11:02 pm
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I think it can be measured Ole, although seemingly in only the most extreme of examples. Some generals inspire, as you say, through victory. Others, like little Mac, seemed to have a natural gift to instill pride in those under and around him. Of course, the popularity of that General was not universal, but the tangible effect he had following first Manassas is simply not up for debate. Unfortunatle for Mac, too few of those other characteristics mentioned by posters can be attributed to him.

Having said that, how does one measure those with less demonstrable direct effect on others. How does one counter said effect with that of the natural frame of mind of that time period, the medias role of those times, and etc? Perhaps another with greater time and capacity than myself could shed some light on the subject-but I, like you, are at a loss in finding an answer. Your comparison to that other attribute, luck, seems, at least to me, well founded.

 



 Posted: Mon Mar 31st, 2008 12:13 am
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You've heard of the satirical "Richmond is a Hard Road to Travel"?*  Sung by the Federal soldiers, it pokes fun at six Union generals who never made it to Richmond.  Caution and withdrawal seemed to be their style, especially McClellan.

I've come to believe that the Committee on the Conduct of the War had a direct influence on the way the Army of the Potomac was led.  The political pressure on the generals must have been enormous.  Their chief goal was to avoid being defeated.

The Committee knew little and cared less about the Western Theater.  Halleck, Grant, Thomas, they all felt much freer to operate according to good military principles.  They got better results too.  Of course, you have also to consider their Confederate opponents - Pillow, Pemberton, Bragg, and JE Johnston - in evaluating the success of the Union generals.

* Especially during rush hour.  :=))  Widow



 Posted: Mon Mar 31st, 2008 12:21 am
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Widow
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Joanie, for 20 years while commuting to and from work, I crossed a street in Vienna (Fairfax County, VA) called Wade Hampton Drive.  "Strange name for a street.  Who was he, the developer of the neighborhood?"

Now I'm retired, but I still cross Wade Hampton Drive when I go shopping.  I give him a little private salute, as I've come to admire him more and more.

Just finished reading Eric Wittenberg's "Glory Enough for All: Sheridan's Second Raid and the Battle of Trevilians Station."  Wittenberg lost all respect for Sheridan and wrote about Hampton's brilliant deployment of his troopers during that battle.  It was the biggest all-cavalry fight on the North American continent.  Widow



 Posted: Mon Mar 31st, 2008 05:06 am
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JoanieReb
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Widow,

It is SO GOOD to see you on the board again.  I thought that you had moved along in life and left us behind.  You have been missed!

I once checked out Eric Wittenburg's "Glory Enough for All..." from the library, and didn't have time to do anything but skim it.  I regret that, and will go back and read it in detail now.

Wade Hampton is So Underestimated; I think, because he was a soldier first, and not a glory-seeker.   He tried to enlist as a private, but was made a colonel.  (somewhat like Sherman, whom went for a lower rank than he could have been given).

The stories about Wade III are every bit as exciting as those about Stuart and others, but Hamtpon preferred to do his duty than to go for the public-popularity-glory.

Anyway, I'm truly glad to hear your voice here again,

Joanie






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