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 Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 09:54 pm
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javal1
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Bama -

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

Are you not trying to use a document to justify a cause while that very cause blatantly ignored other sections of the very same document?



 Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 11:23 pm
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Old Blu
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

One has to remember at the time of this writing, only whites were considered
MEN.



 Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 12:37 am
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ole
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Underlying the entire document is the inalienable right to try. Actually succeeding is not an inalienable right.

I'll also note that it cautions that "...whenever a government becomes obstructive of these ends..."

Those who wrote and debated and signed that document knew very well that they were rebelling ... not seceding ... rebelling. In knowing that, they still pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor.



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 Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 03:25 am
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The Iron Duke
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"If the South's people thought it in every way better for them  to separate from the Union and form a Confederacy of their own, on what just ground could they be prevented from doing so?  and whence did the Government of the Union derive authority to coerce them?"  -AP Stewart. 

Soldier of Tennessee, page 19



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 Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 08:06 pm
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ole
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Both documents were written with a goal of government by the people. This was a first. All governments were, until that time, run by an aristocracy.(Skipping over the "democracies" of Greece and Rome.)

After a fashion, this republic still operates on that principle. In 1860, the grand experiment was challenged. One side saw in the Declaration that it could declare itself a different nation. The other side saw that the experiment would fail if a part of it could withdraw whenever it pleased.

So we had a situation that only an armed conflict could resolve. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm rather glad about the way it turned out.



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 Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 10:33 pm
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The Iron Duke
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Mr. Duncan I think it puts it very succinctly. Should these documents be relevant today? Absolutely. Are they in actuality? Only when it advances the ambition of a politician or special interest group.

King George III isn't looking so bad right now.



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 Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 11:01 pm
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The Iron Duke
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I can take it back if you like...



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 Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 11:19 pm
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A question might be, rather than are the two documents relevant today ( I agree that they SHOULD be ), did the creators of these documents EXPECT them to be relevant for the infinite future? I believe that if they did, that means men like Jefferson were extremely short-sighted and naive--arrogant?--and frankly, I think they were none of those adjectives. You can apply that litmus test to any of the ages, Revolution, Civil War, the present day.

Pam



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 Posted: Wed Oct 8th, 2008 12:36 am
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The Iron Duke
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Ed,

I think part of the problem is that we as citizens feel disenfranchised. I've met a number of people who simply don't care who wins the election. And can you really blame them when our politicians are bought and sold like cattle and cater to special interest groups? Not to mention the pure farce of Congress showing indignation at this financial meltdown when they themselves helped create this debacle.

In addition, I know many people who think the electoral process of selecting our President is a crock. Finally, when you have a Supreme Court case like Kelo vs City of New London where there seems to be little to stop the government from using eminent domain to further their own greed how are people supposed to feel that they can actually influence the outcome???

People are apathetic because they don't expect anyone in Washington to genuinely care.  And there's nothing in their track record to change this belief any time soon.

Last edited on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 12:39 am by The Iron Duke



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 Posted: Wed Oct 8th, 2008 12:42 am
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Golly! Take a break to clean up the kitchen a bit and mess it up again making dinner, and I'm behind about six or eight posts. Never mind, I'm particularly pleased to see this board taking off with some spirited discussions. With that being said, I'll have to now go back up the queue to see if there's something requiring a response.



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