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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > General Civil War Talk > Black Confederates |
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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > General Civil War Talk > Black Confederates |
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| Black Confederates | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 01:19 am |
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1st Post |
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Naim Peress Member
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I wrote a blog post today (http://www.civilwaretal.blogpost.com) about how unlikely it was that tens of thousands of blacks fought in the Confederate Army. I talked about the Cleburne monograph and Judah Benjamin's January 1865 speech in the African Church and the reaction to it. Tell me what you think and why you think it. I'm interested in other opinions.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 03:05 am |
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2nd Post |
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borderuffian Member 
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From your article- "Four days after Benjamin's speech, the Confederate Senate drafted a resolution stating,'Judah P. Benjamin is not a wise and prudent Secretary of State and lacks the confidence of the country.' " ============================= I looked this up in the Journal of the Confederate Congress. Such a resolution was proposed but it was voted down.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 03:09 am |
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3rd Post |
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borderuffian Member
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Naim Peress wrote: I wrote a blog post today (http://www.civilwaretal.blogpost.com) about how unlikely it was that tens of thousands of blacks fought in the Confederate Army. I talked about the Cleburne monograph and Judah Benjamin's January 1865 speech in the African Church and the reaction to it. Tell me what you think and why you think it. I'm interested in other opinions. Who is being counted? Those who were in actual military service?....or anyone who picked up a musket during a battle?
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 11:54 am |
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4th Post |
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Naim Peress Member
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Thanks for the reply. It is true that the resolution was voted down but it reflected the lack of confidence in Benjamin's leadership. He felt the need to resign shortly afterward. He drafted his resignation letter but President Davis rejected it. Do you think it would have made a difference in the outcome of the war if Benjamin's policy had been adopted?
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18th, 2009 11:56 am |
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5th Post |
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Naim Peress Member
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That is an excellent question. I don't know the answer because a census was never taken of black members of the Confederate army. How do you think historians should count it? This is an important question now in Civil War history.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2009 01:27 am |
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6th Post |
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CleburneFan Member 
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I am a purist when it comes to counting strength of the armed forces in the Civil War. I would count African-Americans who fought for the South IF and only IF they had been officially mustered into the service either by conscription or as volunteers. They would have to have a rank, wear a uniform, and be assigned to a company, regiment, division and corps. They would be entitled to at least some pay for their service and perhaps eventually entitled to a pension, however small. African-Americans who did not meet those criteria but "helped out" in an informal manner in some battles or skirmishes either armed or using improvised weapons such as pitchforks and so on, do not count as actual Armed Forces. Those African-Americans who worked as cooks, teamsters, blacksmiths, laborers and the like without actually holding rank would be CIVILIAN labor that accompanied the Confederate army either voluntarily or under force. Most of the time, in the South such civilians would be non-combatants. One reason would be that many Southerners were reluctant to arm their slaves and ex-slaves for combat for fear that the arms would be turned against the whites. When Patrick Cleburne made the controversial proposal to arm African-Americans, his proposal was considered to be so inflammatory that Jefferson Davis ordered that it be supressed and never discussed.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2009 12:53 pm |
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7th Post |
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Naim Peress Member
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I agree with you. Your criterion makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the comment.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2009 01:35 pm |
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8th Post |
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borderuffian Member
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Black involvement in the Confederate army was varied: Slaves Servant Cook, Teamster, Musician- Enlisted or hired out by slaveowner. Free Blacks Servant (hired) Cook, Teamster, Musician- Enlisted or hired. Private (enlisted)
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2009 02:09 pm |
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9th Post |
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j harold 587 Member
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I must agree with Cleburne fan to be a member of the armed forces one would receive pay, be carried on a unit muster role, and hold a rank. If teamsters, cooks, laundresses, servants, and other types of camp followers are to be counted, then the truck drivers, catering staff, laundry providers, and other CIVILIAN support staff who support our military all over the wourld would be considered military personell. I understand that personell in those positions may have come under fire or responded in an armed manner, however they should not be considered soldiers.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2009 02:16 pm |
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10th Post |
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Naim Peress Member
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Aside from the Melungeons (I believe that is the spelling), there were no black soldiers in the Confederate army. Your list spells out what they could do.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2009 03:01 pm |
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11th Post |
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borderuffian Member
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Naim Peress wrote: Aside from the Melungeons (I believe that is the spelling), there were no black soldiers in the Confederate army. Your list spells out what they could do. http://www.civilwarinteractive.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=2121&forum_id=1&jump_to=23655#p23655
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2009 10:24 pm |
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12th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member 
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I wrote this in another forum here on CWI a few moths ago. I think it partially relates to the topic. "The website for the SCV Camp 469 of Rome, GA (http://scvcamp469-nbf.com/hollandservice.htm) presents the following in relation to a black Confederate's grave: "Sunday, September 08, 2002 The time came for Creed Holland to get the recognition he was due. He was a black slave, but also a Confederate soldier. And for such, Creed Holland was honored Saturday morning at a graveside ceremony in a small cemetery behind Riverview Baptist Church in Rocky Mount. The Jubal Early chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy dedicated Confederate memorial markers to Creed Holland and two other black Confederate soldiers, also named Holland, from Franklin County. Hazel Holland Davis, a member of the Jubal Early chapter and great-granddaughter of a Confederate soldier, organized the service as part of a chapterwide project to identify Confederate soldiers' graves in Franklin County. The three Holland soldiers, of no known relation to each other or to Davis, worked as slaves on Thomas J. Holland's 732-acre farm in Glade Hill. Thomas Holland was Davis' great-great-grandfather. The service was a rare memorial that honored the little-known Confederate soldiers: enslaved black soldiers. About 45 Confederate re-enactors and members of the United Daughters of the Confederacy and Sons of Confederate Veterans performed the ceremony, which included poems, speeches, prayers and customary military funeral rites such as cannonball volleys and rifle shots." The article goes on in other detail (but I felt was too long to continue quoting here)." Also, on the same forum, I posted: "An intersting PDF file from the North Carolina Dept. of Cultural Resources, dated Feb. 2002 (http://www.ncdcr.gov/news/2003/opa_2-26-03.pdf): "Among the records in North Carolina’s archives that document African Americans’ service are newspaper enrollment notices that give times for free Negroes to enlist in the Confederate Army, correspondence, Confederate pension applications, and depositions. Some military records note that slaves helped to construct forts or do other work at military facilities. Other documentation can be found in the “North Carolina Troops, 1861-1865,” a 15-volume set of reference books that chronicles Confederate servicemen and includes the names of black soldiers." "In some instances, officials even denied the existence of black Confederate soldiers. For instance, Sarah Venable, widow of John W. Venable, applied for a widow’s pension. Venable is listed in the “North Carolina Troops, 1861-1865,” as a member of Company H, 21 st Regiment N.C. Troops. The roster shows that he was “Negro, enlisted June 5, 1861. No further records.” However, John Sawyer, a white Confederate veteran who served with Venable, submitted a deposition as part of Sarah’s application stating that he knew John Venable, and that Venable had “made a good soldier.” Yet the claim was disallowed with the notation, “No law for this.”Any thoughts??? Last edited on Fri Jun 19th, 2009 10:26 pm by Albert Sailhorst |
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20th, 2009 02:20 am |
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13th Post |
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Naim Peress Member
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I'm glad these men did receive the honors they deserve, albeit belatedly.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20th, 2009 05:29 am |
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14th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352 
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http://www.civilwarinteractive.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=1845&forum_id=1&highlight=%26quot%3BBlack+Confederate%26quot%3B An old closed thread w/ more info than you can want in one place.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20th, 2009 02:08 pm |
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15th Post |
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Naim Peress Member
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I can see the amount of debate. I can also see that you've done a lot of reading on the topic. I'm impressed.
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