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| Patton | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15th, 2010 12:40 am |
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1st Post |
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TimK Member
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The other night was prom night at my son's high school, so naturally I was up all night (or at least until I knew he got home safe and sober). Luckily for me, the movie "Patton" was on, so I actually had a relatively good middle of the night movie to watch. I hadn't seen it in about 20 years, so it was a very enjoyable experience. While I was watching it, I kept thinking that some of Patton's actions were similar to some actions of Civil War generals. I have one particular general in mind, but I wonder if anybody else has thought Patton's actions resembled any actions from the Civil War. Any thoughts?
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15th, 2010 01:43 am |
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Mark Member
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Interesting question... George Custer and Phil Sheridan immediately came to mind for me. Mark
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15th, 2010 12:57 pm |
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Number Nine Member
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Tim, I don't know who you have in mind, but I have read that as a boy in California Patton spent many hours in the woods "playing civil war" with John Mosby who was a friend of the family. Here is a quote from one of the Mosby bio's I have. His military influence continued during George S. Patton’s childhood, one of the best friends of the Patton family was none-other-than Colonel John S. Mosby, the fabled "Grey Ghost". Patton grew up hearing tales of daring raids and stunning cavalry attacks from the Grey Ghost himself. During visits to the Patton Ranch in Southern California, Colonel Mosby would re-enact the Civil War with George, playing himself, he let George play the part of General Lee, as they would recount the battles of the war, astride their horses. These firsthand stories, and horseback re-enactments, directed by one of the greatest Guerilla fighters of all time no doubt had a huge influence on Patton. George’s sense of bravery and duty, and his Guerilla like tactics were no doubt heavily influenced by his early exploits with John S. Mosby.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15th, 2010 08:06 pm |
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19bama46 Member
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I think he is referring to Gen Nathan Bedford Forrest. Right Tim?
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15th, 2010 08:10 pm |
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19bama46 Member
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I think he is referring to Gen Nathan Bedford Forrest. Right Tim?
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 12:06 am |
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ole Member 
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Could be a composite of a lot of CW figures. Patton's pattern wasn't based entirely on Mosby's influence. Mosby wasn't inclined to get into knock-down drag-out fights. Others were, as was Patton. Forrest moved long distances fast, as did Patton, but Patton was more focused on how his actions fit within the grander strategy intended for the troops in his command. I'd guess his bigger influence was U.S. Grant: hit 'em where they aren't and don't stop.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 12:31 am |
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TimK Member
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Actually, when I was watching the movie, I did think Patton seemed like a composite. I couldn't quite put my finger on any one general, but I thought at times he acted as if his armored division were cavalry. He also thought he needed to dress flashier to stand out, so I thought Stuart. Am I off base on this? I thought that Patton realized he was going to have heavy casualties if he kept attacking. That is what war was to Patton, and he trained his men to accept it. And he kept attacking. That reminded me of Grant. I'm not sure about this one though. Concerning the Battle of the Bulge - if he could take men out of one battle, march 100 miles in 48 hours, and then fight again - that could be any number of CW generals. Forrest came to mind. Any other thoughts on this?
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 12:47 am |
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Texas Defender Member 
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While the analogy isn't perfect, I would compare General Patton to General Sherman, at least when it came to military operations. For one thing, both generals were considered eccentric, if not crazy, by some of their contemporaries. Both generals had a sense of history and both were knowledgeable about military history. They were students of the military art. Both generals made great plans based on great ideas, and both were convinced that their great ideas (Unlike those of others) would succeed. They were not conventional types for their day. Both generals believed in mobile operations, and static line operations were anathemas to them. Both believed in deep penetrations of enemy territory to create panic in his rear. Both believed in the value of demoralizing the enemy. Both generals would accept taking casualties to accomplish the mission, but not in simply wasting their mens lives in never ending battles of attrition. They believed in decisive strokes against the enemy. So there you have some perhaps questionable analysis of two generals by someone who wasn't trusted to be made one. 
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 01:08 am |
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Doc C Member 
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Patton, was to me much more egotistical than Sherman. Sherman disdained war and used any resource available to him to shorten it whereas Patton thrived on it. Best quote from the movie Patton - when asked if he prayed, Patton replied "every goddamn day". Doc C
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 01:16 am |
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Texas Defender Member
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Doc C- I agree with what you said regarding the differences in personalities between Sherman and Patton. I could have also made a list of their differences. That is why I was careful to say: "At least when it came to military operations." Last edited on Fri Apr 16th, 2010 01:17 am by Texas Defender |
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17th, 2010 08:03 pm |
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ole Member
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AWESOME analysis, TD! It is quite amazing that most of the outstanding generals were and are those who are a touch unusual. One of the things you learn at acadamies is that you never, ever divide your forces. But Lee did that many times and was mostly successful. Until he met an equally successful general that believed in the hammer theory. All outside the rule book. Thanks. Ole
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17th, 2010 09:13 pm |
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Texas Defender Member
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ole- I didn't go to West Point, but I knew some who did.They tended to have a sense of superiority, and they had indeed received a very fine education. But that was no guarantee that they would be successful. Military officers in the stress of battle tend to react pretty much as they have been trained to. But it is not always enough to know the "rules." A good commander must also have a feel for the exceptions to the rules. The types who are advanced most quickly in peacetime often don't turn out to be successful in wartime, especially if it has been a long time since the last war. In the Civil War (as in World War II), it took some time to separate the wheat from the chaff when it came to those in leadership positions. The unsuccessful were soon relegated to rearward positions or to retirement. Often those who were successful were the "oddballs" who weren't regarded highly during peacetime. As long as they were successful, they were quickly advanced up the levels of command. Often they were successful because they tended to be unconventional. Because of their success, their eccentricities were tolerated. But when the emergency of war ended, many of the oddballs could then be dispensed with. The system no longer had to put up with them. General Patton can be seen as an example of this. Being who he was, he quickly irritated those in power and soon after the shooting stopped, he was relieved of command of the Third Army. Last edited on Sat Apr 17th, 2010 09:16 pm by Texas Defender |
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18th, 2010 07:25 pm |
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13th Post |
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AnnieJones Member 
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It was great to read this post on Patton. I enjoyed what everyone had to say regarding the comparisons between Patton and CW Leaders. Very interesting! My father took me to see Patton when I was nine years old. The movie scared the heck out of me, but also left a lasting impression, and gave me a lifetime appreciation for the American Armed Forces. " Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity." - George Patton FYI: There is a General George S. Patton Memorial Museum near Indio, California, if you are ever in the area. It's small and informal, but worth a quick stop if you are passing through. http://www.desertusa.com/mag99/feb/stories/paton.html Annie.
____________________ " I intend to make Georgia howl. " - General William T. Sherman, Union Army. |
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24th, 2010 09:42 pm |
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Captain Crow Progressive Southerner 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu11QRO9BrQ George C. Scott as Patton=one of the greatest performances of all time imo. Last edited on Sat Apr 24th, 2010 09:43 pm by Captain Crow |
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25th, 2010 08:11 am |
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susansweet3 Member 
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Just learned yesterday Patton State Hospital for the criminally insane here in Southern California was a gift of the Patton family.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25th, 2010 02:51 pm |
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Captain Crow Progressive Southerner
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No small irony there.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25th, 2010 04:53 pm |
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susansweet3 Member
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Yeah I thought it was interesting .
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25th, 2010 08:19 pm |
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18th Post |
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TimK Member
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Going back a little bit to the conversation Ole and TD were having about in the middle of this thread - it seems as though an "oddball" or unconventional leader may an advantage during a war or battle. Patton, Sherman, Jackson, Forrest, and several others have been described as maybe a little (or a lot) crazy, but all were considered successful. Lee was probably the most straight arrow, but his successes were by using some maneuvers that were not maybe by the book. I honestly don't know enough about Eisenhower and Bradley during WW II to know if they were strictly by the book, or if they had some "oddball" type ideas for success. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, other than the thought that to be successful during wartime, maybe its best to do the unconventional. But that doesn't seem right, either. I'm open to any opinions.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25th, 2010 09:45 pm |
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19th Post |
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Texas Defender Member
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Tim- I wouldn't go so far as to say that the recipe for success in wartime is simply to be unconventional. But I would say that you have a good chance for success if you are unconventional when your enemy expects you to be conventional. The commander who is most likely to win is he who understands what to expect from his enemy while being able to conceal his own intentions from him. That is, he can get into his opponent's mind while his remains a mystery to that opponent. Besides that, a good commander must understand what he can reasonbly expect from those soldiers that he is called upon to lead. Perhaps an old Chinese guy said it best: "It is said that if you know your enemies and you know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but you know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every battle." - Sun Tzu He also said: "He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorius." Last edited on Sun Apr 25th, 2010 09:54 pm by Texas Defender |
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25th, 2010 11:26 pm |
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20th Post |
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Captain Crow Progressive Southerner
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he also said "Many man cook but Fu Manchu".
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