Civil War Interactive Discussion Board Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register


Other foreign help - General Civil War Talk - Civil War Talk - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
 Moderated by: javal1 Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2   
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rating:  Rating
AuthorPost
 Posted: Sat Nov 26th, 2011 06:56 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
21st Post
BHR62
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 12th, 2010
Location: Indiana USA
Posts: 242
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

CSA...after the war some in the North wanted retribution for the way France and England acted during the war. But nothing really came of it. The Yanks massed 50,000 men under Phil Sheridan on the Mexican border after Appomattox. Sec of State Seward sent a to the point note to Paris saying they were going to enforce the Monroe Doctrine....they bailed out of Mexico. The US then took the Brits to international court over the building of ship raiders for the Confederates. They would win substantial damages which cooled things down with them. Here is a link I found this afternoon brushing up on this topic.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/europeandcivilwar.htm

Tells you a lot in a brief manner of the European powers dealings with our Civil War.



 Posted: Sun Nov 27th, 2011 03:23 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
22nd Post
csamillerp
Member


Joined: Wed Feb 10th, 2010
Location: South Carolina USA
Posts: 212
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Wow after reading that it's amazing how close England came to supporting the south. How many troops do you think England could muster? Considering their huge empire that is. Would they have been able to send enough troops make things equal on the battlefield for the south? I know their navy would have been the greatest help... eveyone downplays the union blockade but the conditions of the soldiers and civilians by late 63 testifies to the effectivness of the blockade



 Posted: Sun Nov 27th, 2011 08:34 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
23rd Post
Hellcat
Root Beer Lover


Joined: Tue Nov 15th, 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 901
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

csamillerp wrote: I dont think it would have been improbable though. A desperate man can make desperate decisions and it's no secret that the south was just about always desperate. I have never heard of southern troops in canada thats very interesting. What were they doing there?
I didn't say impossible or improbable, only that it would have been a bad idea because of what it would could have done if they were caught trying to get Canada or Britain to enter the war that way. They would have had to ensure they didn't get captured by Canadian or British authorities in order to get away with it.

 

BHR62 wrote:
I believe Hellcat is talking about the Confederate 5th Column. THey were spies and propagandists for the Southern cause operating out of Canada. I don't believe they were actual soldiers.



 

Spies, propagandists, sabotuers, raiders, escaped prisoners, diplomats to the North.

February 15th the Confederate Congress apprpriated $5 million for operations based out of Canada. According to The Library of Congress Civil War Desk Reference this was saboatage and espionage idea of one Thomas C. Hines, a former calvarlyman who was placed in charge of the operation.

However, this was likely Thomas Henry Hines, a Captain in the Confederate cavalry who served under John Hunt Morgan. According to the article on Hines in the Encyclopedia of the American Civil War (edited by David S. Heilder and Jeanne T. Heidler) Hines accompanied Morgan to Richmond after they had returned to Kentucky following the escape from the Ohio Penitentiary. According to this article the Confederate Secretary of State, James Seddon, appointed Hines as a covert agent and sent him to Canada where he was to hook up with James Holcombe for, among other things, the purpose of gathering Confederate soldiers in Canada so as to assist in their returning to the Confederacy. He would also get involved in the Northwestern Conspiracy as he was returning to the Confederacy only to have to return to Canada when the conspiracy fell apart and spies within the Copperheads recgonized him. According to this article he remained there until 1867.

Yet other sources say Hines didn't return to Canada until after getting married and even then he didn't stay in Canada until after Lincoln was assassinated. He was mistaken for Booth in Detroit and forced to flee to Canada according to James Horan's Confederate Agent.

The Encycolpedia of the America Civil War has an article on Covert Action, Confederate. Pertaining to operations in Canada the article talks about an operation to defeat Lincoln in the 1864 election. Buchanan Secretary of the Interior Jacob Thompson was selected to head the operation and was given $1 million in gold to take care of this operation. Accompanying him, and representing the Confederate War Department, was Clement Clay. Operations were based out of Toronto and St. Catherines, the latter of which allowed meetings with Northern antiwar politicians in Detroit and New York and New England. Thompson and Clay gathered together a staff that included a P.C. Martain, a Larry McDonald, escaped Confederate POWs, and other Confederate military personnel as the need would arise. According to this article Hines was one such military personnel attached to Thompson and Clay's operations in Canada.

Another of their operatives was one George Nicholas Sanders who was supposed to favor a chaos theory. Unlike the mathematical theory this chaos theory was about creating chaos in the Federal government through the removal of key political figures either by capture or assassination. Basically the removal of these figures would cause a political upheval which would then allow antigovernment groups to sieze the reins of power over the Federal government. John Wilkes Booth, according to the article, was supposedly recuited for the attempt to capture Lincoln.

This group was also supposed to try to cause the Copperheads to revolt against the government through the use of sabotage and raids. Among the latter was the St. Albans Raid. The St. Albans Raid was a raid on the banks in St Albans, Vermont. According to the Encyclopedia of the American Civil War's article on the afforementioned Clement Clay planned the raid. However he's not mentioned in the book's article on the raid which does discuss the raid and others being an effort to either influence the 1864 election or lead to an Anglo-American War. The raid was lead by a Lt. Bennett Young and the raiders checked into Vermont hotels as members of the Montreal fishing club (gee, I wonder if they needed passports to cross the border (sarcasm inserted there)). The raid proved a failure according to the article, but did cause  legal proceedings that threatened Anglo-American peace when the raiders were captured. Captured on Candaian soil by US troops dispatched by the governor of Vermont. Aside from causing the raiders to be captured it did cost Clay his position as a Confederate Commisioner to Canada as the article on Clay says that once it was revealed he'd participated in the raid in any way he was then forced to flee Canada.

Philip Van Doren Stern posted an article from 1906 by John W. Headley on the raid in his book Secret Misions of the Civil War. Stern reveals that Young was a 21-yeard old cavalryman  under Morgan who had been captured at the same time as Morgan and escaped to Canada before returning to the Confederacy via Bermuda. He was promoted to the rank of Lt. then dispatched by the Secretary of War to Canada with a letter for Clay. Young made a couple of unsuccesful attempts to free Confederate POWs before meeting again with Clay and getting him to allow him to pick out a town in Vermont to raid. So we do here have Clay somehow involved in the raid. Headley's article (entiteld Confederate Operations in Canada and New York) does further place Clay involved in planning the raid. Headley, who was involved in the Confederate attempt to burn NYC, claimed the raiders wore Confederate uniforms, a pair of navy pistols, and declared they were taking the town in the name of the Confederacy. When people hesitated to obey the orders given to go into the town square and remain their until further ordered the raiders, according to Headley, fired on them resulting in the injury of one. After three quarters of an hour more people began to arrive (the population was listed at 5,000 in the article) which included Federal soldiers. As a result a skirmish broke out between the raiders and a combined force of soldiers and civillians. This skirmish resulted in three seriously injured Confederate and one dead civillian.

It should, however, be noted that although Headley says the raiders wore their uniforms, Stern mentions that many of the eyewitnesses never reported seeing Confederate uniforms.


The raid is mentioned in Donald E. Markle's Spies & Spymasters of the Civil War which suggests the raiders may have had some success as they netted $200,000 from the St Albans banks. The US attempted to get the money back from Canada who refused the return on the grounds that the raid had been a military mission. And apparently Canada was able to produce the orders for the raid which came directly from Richmond.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47387530/Confederate-Operations-in-Canada-and-New-York-John-W-Headley-1906



 Posted: Sun Nov 27th, 2011 10:49 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
24th Post
BHR62
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 12th, 2010
Location: Indiana USA
Posts: 242
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I think there were too many cons to British interests for them to intervene militarily.  Which I'm sure the pro-North advocates in the British government would have pointed out.  This link is a pretty indepth link on the European powers and Federal government in Washington diplomatic back and forth.

http://www.voltairenet.org/U-S-Civil-War-The-US-Russian



 Posted: Sun Nov 27th, 2011 10:54 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
25th Post
BHR62
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 12th, 2010
Location: Indiana USA
Posts: 242
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Thanks Hellcat for that info on the Confederates in Canada. I didn't know they launched actual raids.



 Posted: Sun Nov 27th, 2011 11:13 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
26th Post
pender
Member


Joined: Wed Jun 8th, 2011
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 148
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Reading this thread I can not help but to keep thinking of Shelby Footes quote on Ken Burns Civil War. It went some thing like this, If it was not for the help from the French we would of never won the American Revolution.      

Last edited on Sun Nov 27th, 2011 11:15 am by pender



 Posted: Sun Nov 27th, 2011 11:32 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
27th Post
csamillerp
Member


Joined: Wed Feb 10th, 2010
Location: South Carolina USA
Posts: 212
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

If England had joined the south, what other countries would have followed?



 Posted: Sun Nov 27th, 2011 03:27 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
28th Post
Mark
Member
 

Joined: Mon Mar 30th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 434
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

csamiller, almost certainly France. But I don't think any others would have gotten involved. No one else in Europe had the capacity (a navy) to engage in adventures across the Atlantic. I would be more interested to see what actions Russia might have taken in response to British and French involvement.

Mark



 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2011 02:09 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
29th Post
Hellcat
Root Beer Lover


Joined: Tue Nov 15th, 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 901
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I ended up looking through some of my other books, and the addendum to Markle's book, BHR. What I didn't go into was the attack on NYC and I did have that incident in Stern's book (told again by Headley who, as I said, was one of the Confederate agents involved) and in one of my Webb Garrison books. But I'd thought folks knew about that one which is why I didn't go into it. The addendum to Markle's book does have a couple of interesting things on the St Alban's raid concerning couriers for both the Federal and Confederate forces. One of the other books that talked about the St. Alban's raid actually says Lt. Young said he was a Confederate officer, but nothing about taking the town in the name of the Confederacy.

However, of greater interest to me in that book is a mention of a couple planned raids on Camp Douglass. Planned as the first one the Camp commander found out about it and had his garrison reinforced and the Confederate raiders found out about this so they didn't bother carrying it out and in the second most of the raiders were captured before they could actually carry out the raid because one of their numbers was a Federal spy.



 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2011 03:07 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
30th Post
csamillerp
Member


Joined: Wed Feb 10th, 2010
Location: South Carolina USA
Posts: 212
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Did Canada know about the confederates launching raids from its country? Wouldnt the U.S see that as an act of war? Or did the U.S ignore it because they didnt want to fight 2 wars?

Last edited on Mon Nov 28th, 2011 03:08 am by csamillerp



 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2011 03:54 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
31st Post
Hellcat
Root Beer Lover


Joined: Tue Nov 15th, 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 901
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

It was known there were Confederates in Canada. Thompson and Clay were Confederate commissioners to Canada. And after the St. Albans raid Canadian officals arrested many of the raiders. However, they refused to turn them over to the US as they had proof the raid was a military mission. According to Markle's Spies & Spymasters of the Civil War , Foreward to Addendum, page 219:

Another courier played a role in the aftermath of the St. Albans, Vermont bank raid. That courier was Sarah Slater who had also been serving as a courier between Toronto and Richmond. After the bank raid the United States requested that the participants of the St. Albans event be extradited to the U.S. for Trial. Canada stated it would do so only if proven that the men were not members of the Confederate military and therefore on a military mission. Mrs. Slater carried the service records of the participants in the raid to Canada as proof of their military status. As a result the men were not extradited to the U.S. but remained free to continue their work for the Confederacy.

 

The article in the Encyclopedia of the American Civil War discuss the raid a bit more and the capture of the raiders, further explaining they were turned over to Canadian authorities after being captured by US troops on Canadian soil. It's article on Clay explains that his role in the raid actually cost him his position as commisioner.



 Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2012 04:38 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
32nd Post
sallieparker
Member
 

Joined: Fri Sep 21st, 2012
Location:  
Posts: 6
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

The Confederate Secret Service passed funds from Liverpool to its agents in Canada. This fascinating book touches on the subject in passing, as well as giving good background on other issues in this thread:
Wilson, Walter E. and Gary L. Mckay. James D. Bulloch; Secret Agent and Mastermind of the Confederate Navy. (Jefferson, NC: McFarland & Co., 2012)

You can also Google "patrick c. martin" and "george n. sanders" or follow links in this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dunwoody_Bulloch



 Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2012 03:38 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
33rd Post
Darryl
Member
 

Joined: Mon Oct 22nd, 2012
Location:  
Posts: 43
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

England was in a quandary about helping the Confederacy. Slavery was illegal in England and had been for quite some time. But the factions in power then were divided over helping the CSA and war with the US. The Battle of Antietam basically decided the question for them. The South had to prove it was a nation fighting for its freedom and not just a group of rebellious states against a lawful government. By not gaining a clear cut victory the south pretty much helped the British decide.



 Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2012 07:25 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
34th Post
Calliopebrook
Member
 

Joined: Thu Nov 1st, 2012
Location:  
Posts: 1
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

csamillerp wrote: i appreciate the responses people. I remember now about France having its own governor over mexico during the time. I guess france still hadnt recovered from the neopoleonic wars. I dont think England would have ever supported the south... so the war was over before it began.There was no Germany until the late 1860s, just a bunch of independent monarchies. Prussia, the largest of the these states had no way of supporting the Confederacy without a navy (even if Bismarck had been so inclined). The Russians were probably the only other country that might of been able to help, but the Czar was a big supporter of Lincoln. Hope that answers your questions.



 Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2012 10:09 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
35th Post
BHR62
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 12th, 2010
Location: Indiana USA
Posts: 242
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Admittedly I haven't studied British policy indepth during the war but I don't think there was a serious chance of them entering the war. There were factions in their government that definitely liked the idea of America splitting up into two seperate nations. They entertained it to a degree. But the US also had allies in England that resisted intervention. The European monarchies in that era didn't like rebellions. It gave people they ruled ideas of their own.

Plus the US Navy by mid-war would have given the British navy a very hard time on the high seas. They would have raided British shipping on the sealanes. Held their own in ship to ship confrontations. Canada would have been at risk. Despite a protracted war with the South there was still manpower available in the North to cause major problems for the British in Canada. It just would have created a lot more problems for the British than what it was worth. The French...they weren't going to do crap as long as the Brits stood on the sidelines.



 Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2012 12:13 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
36th Post
Darryl
Member
 

Joined: Mon Oct 22nd, 2012
Location:  
Posts: 43
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

There are several good books out about this subject. I have had some rather heated discussions with British and Americans on this subject. I will go into my Library today or tomorrow and pull those out and give you the titles. One of them states that the British Chief of the Imperial Staff asked for information on all the US seaports, harbors, etc for planning purposes. The number of British troops was put at 20,000 for the first group to be assembled in Canada.



 Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2012 02:44 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
37th Post
BHR62
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 12th, 2010
Location: Indiana USA
Posts: 242
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I would be interested in the titles you have on this. I'm always wanting to learn something new on this war. I'm curious...the conversations you've had with the Brits ....what is their take on things?

My view is that the Brits had an excellent chance to intervene with the Trent Affair if they had any intention on intervention. A lot of saber rattling along with war preparation on both sides of the Atlantic happened. I think if they were going to do it that was the perfect time to do it. They prepared for war as anyone would. But cooler heads in their government just didn't want to get involved militarily in our Civil War. They were concerned on things spinning out of control. The Russians were a wildcard that could come in on the side of the Lincoln Administration if they intervened in the war. That would cause havoc for them in Europe. Plus from what I've read the North was providing substantial amounts of grain to the Empire. The cons outweighed the benefits.



You have chosen to ignore lancejesus. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2012 07:25 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
39th Post
Texas Defender
Member


Joined: Sat Jan 27th, 2007
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 920
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Thanks to the action of the moderator, this posting is no longer needed.   :D

Last edited on Mon Dec 24th, 2012 08:21 am by Texas Defender



 Current time is 10:24 pmPage:  First Page Previous Page  1  2   
Top




UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.4433 seconds (9% database + 91% PHP). 30 queries executed.