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 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 03:21 am
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grizzly
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We all read about the failure of Stuart to keep Lee informed of the the presence of the Union Army, hence leaving the CS Army "blind" in enemy territory and letting the Army down.  We also see it in the movie Gettysburg. Can someone tell me something?  Where were the other Confederate cavalry units that weren't directly under Stuart?  Couldn't they have been used to screen the army.  If Harrison, the spy, could find the Union Army by himself, surely some units of the remaining cavalry could have provided at least some protection by being on the eastern flank.  It sounds like a gross dereliction of duty to not use the remaining units at your disposal when your main unit can't be found.  Villify Stuart for not showing up on time. Sure.  But not for being the reason you are "blind" in enemy territory. 



 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 01:09 pm
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Mark
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I think you are looking at the campaign in hindsight. We know that Stuart was not doing his job, but Lee did not. Yes, Lee had a brigade of cavalry (Imboden) that was attached to the ANV HQ, but it was generally considered the least experienced and poorest cavalry outfit in the army. Lee had them out west of the Army raiding the B&O railroad and the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal until the evening of July 1. Until the end of July 1, Lee was convinced that Stuart was both screening the ANV and keeping accurate tabs on the Army of the Potomac. Hope that helps.

Mark



 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 02:46 pm
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HankC
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Jenkins brigade had recently been absorbed by the army and screened Ewell's 2nd corps until the battle was joined.

then they were used for typical battle duty: guarding prisoners, protecting the rear screening the flank.

IIRC, they were poorly armed - pretty much only with pistols...



 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 03:18 pm
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Mark
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Good point Hank. I forgot about Jenkins.

Mark



 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 04:03 pm
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HankC
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i believe that Lee wanted to keep a tight rein on Jenkins unit as they were new to the army.

hence they were kept close by...



 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 05:46 pm
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Old Blu
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Mark says-

We know that Stuart was not doing his job,

I beg to differ.  According to the Original Records of the War of Rebellian, Stuart did EXACTLY what he was told to do, unless you have a legitimate source that can tell me different.

Here are mine.

HEADQUARTERS, June 22, 1863.
Major General J. E. B. STUART,
Commanding Cavalry:
GENERAL: I have just received your note of 7, 45 this morning to General Longstreet. I judge the efforts of the enemy yesterday were to arrest our progress and ascertain our whereabouts. Perhaps he is satisfied. Do you know where he is and what he is doing? I fear he will steal a march on us, and get across the Potomac before we are aware. If you find that he is moving northward, and that two brigades can guard the Blue Ridge and take care of your rear, you can move with the other three into Maryland, and take position on General Ewell`s right, place yourself in communication with him, guard his flank, keep him informed of the enemy`s movements, and collect all the supplies you can for the use of the army. One column of General Ewell`s army will probably move toward the Susquehanna by the Emmitsburg route; another by Chambersburg. Accounts from him last night state that there was no enemy west of Frederick. A cavalry force (about 100) guarded the Monocacy Bridge, which was barricaded. You will, of course, take charge of [A. G.] Jenkins` brigade, and give him necessary instructions. All supplies taken in Maryland must be by authorized staff officers for their respective departments-by no one else. They will be paid for, or receipts for the same given to the owners. I will send you a general order on this subject, which I wish you to see is strictly complied with.
I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
R. E. LEE,
General.

http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/recordView.cfm?Content=045/0913

And here-

HEADQUARTERS ARMY OF NORTHERN VIRGINIA, June 23, 1863-5 p. m.
Major General J. E. B. STUART,
Commanding Cavalry:
GENERAL: Your notes of 9 and 10. 30 a. m. to-day have just been received. As regards the purchase of tobacco for your men, supposing that Confederate money will not be taken, I am willing for your commissaries or quartermasters to purchase this tobacco and let the men get it from them, but I can have nothing seized by the men.
If General Hooker`s army remains inactive, you can leave two brigades to watch him, and withdraw with the three others, but should he not appear to be moving northward, I think you had better withdraw this side of the mountain to-morrow night, cross at Shepherdstown next day, and move over to Fredericktown.
You will, however, be able to judge whether you can pass around their army, without hinderance, doing them all the damage you can, and cross the river east of the mountains. In either case, after crossing the river, you must move on and feel the right of Ewell`s troops, collecting information, provisions, &c.
Give instructions to the commander of the brigades left behind, to watch the flank and rear of the army, and (in the event of the enemy leaving their front) retire from the mountains west of the Shenandoah, leaving sufficient pickets to guard the passes, and bringing everything clean along the Valley, Closing upon the rear of the army. As regards the movements of the two brigades of the enemy moving toward Warrenton, the commander of the brigades to be left in the mountains must do what he can to counteract them, but I think the sooner you cross into Maryland, after to-morrow, the better.
The movements of Ewell`s corps are as stated in my former letter. Hill`s first division will reach the Potomac to-day, and Longstreet will follow to-morrow.
Be watchful and circumspect in all your movements.
I am, very respectfully and truly, yours,
R. E. LEE,
General.

http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/recordView.cfm?Content=045/0923


Lee had a brigade of cavalry (Imboden) that was attached to the ANV HQ, but it was generally considered the least experienced and poorest cavalry outfit in the army.

Least experience and poorest in the army?  Source, please.  You have gone too far now it is time to show where you got this.  Also, Imboden did EXACTLY what HE was ordered to do.

General Lees orders to Imboden which were carried out to a t.

HEADQUARTERS ARMY OF NORTHERN VIRGINIA, June 7, 1863.
 
Brigadier General J. D. IMBODEN,

Commanding Northwestern Brigade, via Staunton:

GENERAL: In view of operations in the Shenandoah Valley, I desire you to attract the enemy`s attention in Hampshire County, and to proceed down to Romney, or such other point as you may consider best calculated for the purpose. After leaving a sufficient guard on the Shenandoah Mountain, you can use the rest of your command for the purpose specified. In attracting their attention and detaining whatever force they may have at New Creek, Cumberland, Cacapon, &c., you will, of course, do them all the injury in your power by striking them a damaging blow at any point where opportunity offers, and where you deem most practicable. It will be important if you can accomplish it, to destroy some of the bridges, so as to prevent communication and the transfer of re-enforcements to Martinsburg. After accomplishing what you can in Hampshire, should you find it practicable or advantageous, you can co-operate with any troops that you may find operating in the Valley. Forward to the commanding officer of the force there any information that you may deem important, and comply with any requisition on his part.
 
I desire you to move into Hampshire as soon as possible. Let me know the time of your departure and the time of your expected arrival. In connection with this purpose, it is important that you should obtain, for the use of the army, all the cattle that you can. Communicate with the agents of the Commissary Department you may find purchasing in the country west of Staunton, and let them make arrangements to assist you in purchasing and taking care of the cattle. Major [B. P.] Noland, of that department, is now in that region, making arrangements for cattle. I wish you to communicate with him, if practicable. I hope you will also be able, while in that country, to collect recruits for your brigade, both cavalry and infantry, and bring them out with you.
 
I am, very respectfully, &c.,
 
R. E. LEE,
General.

Last edited on Mon May 7th, 2012 06:09 pm by Old Blu



 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 08:51 pm
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Mark
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Old Blu, I would argue that even with Stuart's discretionary orders, Lee always assumed that one of Stuart's implied tasks would be to report on the movements of the Army of the Potomac. That is simply what cavalry is always supposed to do. Once he lost contact with the ANV, Stuart failed in the primary task of a cavalryman.

On Imboden, I agree with you that he was doing what Lee asked him to do, but Lee had him out on the Western flank of the army because his outfit had a reputation for partisan raiding rather than traditional cavalry work. This arrangement left Jenkins brigade screening the army and no one feeling out ahead of the army because Stuart was out of contact.

Sources:
Stephen Sears, "Gettysburg" p. 57, 118-119.
Noah Trudeau, "Gettysburg: A Testing of Courage" p. 530

Hope that clarifies things.

Mark



 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 09:26 pm
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Old Blu
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Mark wrote: Old Blu, I would argue that even with Stuart's discretionary orders, Lee always assumed that one of Stuart's implied tasks would be to report on the movements of the Army of the Potomac. That is simply what cavalry is always supposed to do. Once he lost contact with the ANV, Stuart failed in the primary task of a cavalryman.

On Imboden, I agree with you that he was doing what Lee asked him to do, but Lee had him out on the Western flank of the army because his outfit had a reputation for partisan raiding rather than traditional cavalry work. This arrangement left Jenkins brigade screening the army and no one feeling out ahead of the army because Stuart was out of contact.

Sources:
Stephen Sears, "Gettysburg" p. 57, 118-119.
Noah Trudeau, "Gettysburg: A Testing of Courage" p. 530

Hope that clarifies things.

Mark


You don't clearafy anything because you fail to see the logistics of Stuarts March and his orders by General Lee.

Where was Ewell when Stuart crossed the Potomac??

I suggest you read either Steve French's book or Tuckers Book and learn about General Imboden. He was a trusted General by Lee and for that he had the responsibility of Lee's wagon train which he saved at Williamsport/Falling Waters. So far from what you have posted convinces me you don't know the facts concerning Stuart and Imboden.

Another good book about Stuart is the book by Eric Wittenberg, "Plenty of Blame to go Around".

Imboden organized the Staunton Artillery and was the captain in Stonewalls Army.  So, no, he was in the army first then he became a partisan ranger.  He didn't get a fair shake from those that had a West Point education because he went to VMI.

blu

Last edited on Mon May 7th, 2012 09:27 pm by Old Blu



 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 09:43 pm
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Old Blu
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Here is a map that will give you quite a few answers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Gettysburg_Campaign.png



 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 01:47 pm
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HankC
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"take position on General Ewell`s right, place yourself in communication with him, guard his flank, keep him informed of the enemy`s movements"



 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 07:54 pm
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Gettysburger
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With the absence of Stuart, I believe it was part of Jenkins brigade that lead Ewell's way south from Carlisle to Gettysburg on June 30th. John Buford talked to Reynolds about encountering gray cavalry in Heidlersburg on the night of the 30th.

Other elements of Jenkins cavalry were probably the first to fire on Union infantry well north of Gettysburg early on July 1.

Again, some of Jenkins detachments served provost duty  around Lee's HQ on July 1 only to disappear from record on the 2nd and reappear with Stuart's forces at ECF on the afternoon of the 3rd.

We know Jenkins was wounded on the 2nd so he must have been been engaged but exactly where is unknown to me?

With the absence of Stuart on July 2 and Albert Jenkins wounded, Ewell was forced to use other infantry units to serve picket duty to guard the Hanover and Carlisle roads that day.

Possibly if Stuart has appeared on July 2, and the infantry units serving cavalry duty had been available to aid Ewell's forces on that second day of battle, maybe the Culps and Cemetary hill assaults would have gone better?

I agree with the prior posts, Jenkins cavalry was unproven to Gen. Lee and prior to Gettysburg acted only as partisan rangers.

The battle for Gettysburg is full of breakdowns in command
that we are familiar with. I think this one concerning Jenkins and Stuart and Lee is particularly interesting.



dr. T.



 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 11:08 am
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Old Blu
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Hank, you still refuse to gather the information for you opinion concerning Staurt. The orders lay it out very plain but I can't discuss with those that do not read the OR's I furnished.  Picking and choosing and discussing one sentence doesn't cut it.

Once again, when did Stuart cross the Potomac?  There was no way for him to stay on Ewell's right but he was on Stuarts flank as ordered. He was gathering supplies and material as he was ordered.  When Ewell made it to Pennsylvania Early was guarding Ewells right.

So Imboden doesn't know how to use his brigade.  I guess Williams Port and Falling Waters doesn't mean anything even though he set up a defensive position around Lee's wagons and saved them by holding off attacks.:D

Blu




 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 11:08 am
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Old Blu
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oops.  Double post

Last edited on Wed May 9th, 2012 11:11 am by Old Blu



 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 11:53 am
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Are we discussing Imboden's role at Gettysburg or Stuarts?

I understand Imboden's role after the battle was to protect the rear of the ANV during it's retreat from Gettysburg.

Until the retreat on the 4th and until the trains crossed the Potomac, Imboden's brigade saw no combat. They were nowhere near Gettysburg until noon on the 3rd and then only offered rear guard duty to protect the trains.

dr. t.



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 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 04:59 pm
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Old Blu
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Imboden was drawn into the discussion by Mark. He can probably answer the question easier than I. The heading of the thread say "Confederate Cavalry at Gettysburg".

Seems to me like talking about both would fit in.



 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 06:09 pm
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Texas Defender
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Old Blu-

  John Daniel Imboden (1823-1895) didn't graduate from West Point, but in one way he surpassed all other Civil War generals.

  General Imboden had no less than five wives, and he outlived the first four. He was married to:

1) Eliza McCue (1823-1857). Married in 1845. She died in 1857.

2) Mary Wilson McPhail (1834-1865). Married in 1859. She died in 1865.

3) Edna Porter (1825-1870). Married in 1866. She died in 1870.

4) Annie Harper Lockett (1851-1888). Married in 1871. She died in 1888.

5) Florance Johnston Crockett (1860-1908). Married in 1895. She became his widow.

Last edited on Wed May 9th, 2012 08:14 pm by Texas Defender



 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 07:51 pm
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Old Blu wrote: Hank, you still refuse to gather the information for you opinion concerning Staurt. <snip>



it's you who said 'Stuart did EXACTLY what he was told to do'...



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