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William Clarke Quantrill - Other People of the Civil War - The Participants of the War - Mikitary & Civilian - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
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 Posted: Fri Aug 18th, 2006 06:45 pm
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younglobo
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Would like to know what People in east/south think of Quantrill? Was he just a robber or a man of his times ? What would turn a school teacher into a leader of Bushwakers ECT. I recently watched a HC documentary that made him out to be little more than a common Bandit and was wondering what other folks opinion was.



 Posted: Fri Aug 18th, 2006 07:21 pm
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James Longstreet
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Here's an opinion from the South.  I haven't studied about Quantrill to a great length, but I think he was a terrorist.  That raid into Lawrence, Kansas was brutal.  If I'm not mistaken though, he was from Ohio?  I'll have to read up on the subject.



 Posted: Fri Aug 18th, 2006 07:29 pm
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MAubrecht
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Quantrill and his Raiders were brutal. Most accounts that I have read depict him more as a criminal and extremist than a soldier. Clearly he crossed the line (more than once) and was not of the same honorable caliber as a JEB Stuart. Cavalrymen had a lot of "freedom" during the war in regards to raids and seek and destroy-type missions. However, most of them practiced their "art of war" with a level of decency (especially when it came to civilians). Quantrill, although effective, did not hold himself or his men to the same standards IMO.



 Posted: Fri Aug 18th, 2006 07:37 pm
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James Longstreet
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(Just finished reading about Quantrill) I agree, I think Quantrill was a lot more criminal and even more brutal than cavalry and partisan rangers like Moseby and Forrest; though he was not near the commander that Forrest was.  His raids could be compared to the total warfare of Sherman and Sheridan, except Quantrill's force was a grain of sand compared to the enormous Union armies pillaging the South.

Last edited on Fri Aug 18th, 2006 07:38 pm by James Longstreet



 Posted: Sat Aug 19th, 2006 02:47 pm
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younglobo
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Well i have done quiet a bit of research on Quantrill and the other guerillas, and yes he was brutal, but war is brutal . Have you ever seen"Ride with the Devil" that is a mild interpertation on what happen here in MO and Kansas . I am not saying that Lawrence was not a bad day but do you know that a year before Osceola,MO. was pretty much the same deal except it was union forces burnin a southern town. The Lawrence thing for Quantrill is what the march to the sea is for Sherman something people love to hate him for . I will say not a  woman was harmed in Lawrence Quantrill himself made sure of that . What i think people dont consider was that Quantrill before the conflict was a school teacher in OH. so what took him from being a school teacher to leader of "Bandits"? Well for Quantrill he came west with his brother   camping near  Lawrence , a group of Kansas Union Men rode up shot  Quantrill and his brother and left them for dead and stole all they had , because they had heard they were "southern men"that was how the war was fought in MO/KS. Very personaly  

 Good books on the MO. border conflict would be.

We Rode with Quantrill by Donald R Hale

Jennisons Jayhawkers by Stephen Z Starr

Gray Ghosts of the Confederacy by Richard S Brownlee

They Called him Bloody Bill by Donald Hale

and others there also are some good sites on the subject I can point you to

There is a line in "Ride With the Devil" If you want battles go out east here you just go the people to fight ya" that was the war in MO/KS Brother against Brother , Family against family . Course maybe i just live here so i Look at it differently.

 

Last edited on Sat Aug 19th, 2006 02:50 pm by younglobo



 Posted: Mon Aug 21st, 2006 03:01 pm
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MAubrecht
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You're right younglobo, war is brutal. But I think the majority of officers that we study today - maintained a code of ethics during the conflict. They recognized an unspoken "rules of engagement." Much of this may be due to the relationships that were shared between West Pointers in both the blue and gray uniforms. For some, it was a matter of maintaining the honor of their family name. For others, it may have been their religious convictions.

Those that didn't (IMO) took advantage of the war and used it as an opportunity to "misbehave" under the guise of military action. Regardless, I think we can all agree that atrocities in war are not acceptable under any circumstances.

Last edited on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 03:24 pm by MAubrecht



 Posted: Mon Aug 21st, 2006 03:59 pm
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HankC
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It pays to remember that Quantrill was eventually shunned by the regular Confederate forces in his theater.

He was ordered out of the CSA north Texas winter encampment in the winter of 1863-1864.

 

HankC



 Posted: Fri Aug 25th, 2006 09:24 pm
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James Longstreet
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And that's in an army starving for man power.



 Posted: Mon Aug 28th, 2006 04:22 pm
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younglobo
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I think maybe you all have missed the point of my post , yes i was wondering what folks thougt of Quantrill , but i was also wondering what you thought would turn a School teacher prior to the war into a leader of guerilla band.  Yes i Know that Lawrence is what he is well known for but I think Quantrill and his men and groups like them were a product of his times.

 

After the Kansas/Nebraska Act of 1854 is when the civil war started in MO , I think Quantrills band started out as a way for southern men to band together and protect themselves and Family from KS Jayhawkers. 

http://www.rulen.com/partisan/jne1.htm



 Posted: Mon Aug 28th, 2006 05:34 pm
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HankC
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Thieves, robbers and murderers are timeless...



 Posted: Thu Aug 31st, 2006 10:10 pm
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younglobo
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HankC

You say robbers and thieves are timeless . OK fine I somewhat agree . But what makes a School teacher from Ohio or a ordinary farmer from MO that hasnt harmed a soul in his life into this coldblooded thirsty ,robbin , bandit? Study What happen here IN MO/KS. during 1856-1865 . I know if I was around then and a opposing force (Union or Confederate) came and burned my house,crops , murdered family members passed orders 10 and 11 kickin my family out of there home or inprisoning them, It just might be enough to provoke me to take action. Look at Quantrills ranks the Number of men that followed him men that just wanted refuge from what was happenin, a way of gathering together for self-survival, not all these men where thieves , they rode under a black flag cause the gov. that controlled where they operated gave them no choice , if you were captured you were shot or hung no captives . So if showing no mercy makes you a bandit guilty as charged i guess, but if you are saying all of his men were in it to kill and make money i would disagree respectivly.

Michael



 Posted: Thu Aug 31st, 2006 10:58 pm
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javal1
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"But what makes a School teacher from Ohio or a ordinary farmer from MO that hasnt harmed a soul in his life..."

Curious how you would know this as fact, since everything I've ever read on him states that hardly anything is known about his early life. Seems you're making an assumption here. It is known that for a time he made his living as a gambler. In the 1800's, making a living as a gambler, I have trouble believing he was quite as pure as you seem to insinuate. But what is known about him is bad enough. True, there was robbing and killing on both sides of the border war, but that doesn't make one wrong and one right... it just makes all of them guilty of being robbers and murderers. And IMO, that's all Quantrill was.



 Posted: Fri Sep 1st, 2006 04:31 pm
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younglobo
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Javal

I have read letters from Quantrill to his mother, he was a school teacher in OH and Lawrence, KS. also the books i mentioned above state this also. . Now I am not saying that was a hero or saint . Umm as far as being a gambler in the 18oo's that is true he shot a man during a gambling argument while hunting gold by pikes peak ( if memory serves) ,but if you judge a man because he gambles , alot of men then and now are terrible too.



 Posted: Fri Sep 1st, 2006 04:58 pm
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javal1
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YB,

Just to be clear, it wasn't the fact that he was a schoolteacher I was doubting, it was the part where you flat stated that he had never harmed another soul in his life. I doubt he would have included that in letters to his mother. And I'm not judging him because he gambled (I gamble), I was simply saying that gambling in the 1800's was a lot different then than it is now, and required association with a rather seemly and dangerous element. No Trump's Casino with pretty lights and free drinks served by hostesses in really skimpy little outfits :D



 Posted: Fri Sep 1st, 2006 05:50 pm
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younglobo
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Javal

Guess my head was thinking one thing my fingers typing another when i said

But what makes a School teacher from Ohio or a ordinary farmer from MO that hasnt harmed a soul in his life..."

I was meaning men that joined his outfit ,and at the sametime pointing out that Quantrill was once a schoolteacher and that type of person is not the same MO usually that turns into a bloodthirsty killer.



 Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2006 11:46 am
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William Posey
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Being a teacher does not ensure that one is harmless to his fellow human beings.  Many a killer has come from a benign background.

Why that should be is beyond my understanding, but it happens.



 Posted: Sat Mar 3rd, 2007 11:30 pm
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missourianconfederate
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Actually Quantrill and his raiders where a mixture of a terrorist and a hero. Missouri was mostly a prosouthern state...It was the St. Louis Area which got most of the Unionist..I'll avoid saying Yank as much as possible.

One reason why Lawrence, KS. Burned to the ground and several hundred men and boys over 13 died is because it was an act of revenge from the burning of Osceola, Missouri by the Red legs and the Jayhawkers...(Wonder why KU is called the Jayhawks...that mostly explains it.) But the Jayhawkers and Red legs where a also making trouble. Its always the victor who tells the story. My family rode and died with Quantrill and the Missouri State Guard( Missouri Brigade) during the War of Northern Aggression Or one of the umpteen million names you wanna call it.

And both side was good and evil...

I'm from a prodominate southern family.. I do agree Slavery is wrong..but it didn't make a difference then.

But In a way Quantrill was a hero and a Tyrant. But his 2nd in Command was the one that makes the Bushwackers *Raiders* sound evil.

Not to mention with him attacking Lawrence resulted General Order # 11. Which Yanks forced my family from Jackson,Bates,Cass, and Vernon Counties in Missouri of all inhabiatants cept the Major Cities in the Counties.

Which is the first of two orders that forced US Citizens from there homes at time of War.

But yes he was a Hero...and a Tyrant...depending on how will you know Missouri and its people. In my opinon he's a hero but he's also a tyrant in a way.

And yes. I will argue this subject. I am very will educated in Missouri History...

But its the winner of the war who tells the story...not the loser...

My regards,

Missourianconfederate.



 Posted: Sun Mar 4th, 2007 03:29 am
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Johan Steele
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Forrest thought the man a despicable coward... need any more be said? 



 Posted: Sun Mar 4th, 2007 03:25 pm
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ole
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What makes the "nice, quiet, boy" a mass-murderer? The good husband and father a serial killer? The adventurous school-teacher a vicious brigand? Who knows? Who will ever isolate the gene or twisted-thought at the heart of the turning?

I believe it remains that Quantrill used retribution as an excuse for plundering and killing -- something he wouldn't have gotten away with in peaceful times. There was not and cannot be an excuse for the outrages committed in Missouri or other border states from either side.

Ole



 Posted: Sun Mar 4th, 2007 09:10 pm
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Kentucky_Orphan
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All this makes one shudder at the thought that the whole south could have degenerated into Missouri (I say MO as example, but it could have concievably been much worse)around the time we now say the war concluded. It really wouldn't have taken all that much for this to happen. If the war in missouri and other areas that were guerrilla strongholds is any indication, I'm not sure what the Federal response could have been that would have put an ending to such activity. Federals officials/officers showed themselves to be incapable of really stomping out such tactics. Indeed, the same could be said of todays officials/officers. Of course, the fact that we didn't understand what we were getting into (political situation before and after sadam removal, what the factions are and their history, the individual person, etc.) makes the problem worse, but there is no indication that we would have been able to stomp it out any better then than now. Matching brutality for brutality would not have been the answer, IMO.



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