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 Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 03:38 pm
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Old Sorrel
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David White wrote:

It is all lip service and no action on the part of CWPT

HI DW,

I think 24,000 acres is a little more than lip service my friend. They cant save everything. They rate battlefields of importance.  They have a section on their web site about ratings,,, ill try to find it.

 The original poster is correct they are concentrating on the east because they see that as most endangered.  All well and good but not enough foresight IMO, because you end up paying Slaughter Pen prices for everything,

They should be concentrating more on the east because the eastern part is experiencing record sprawl. If the CWPT doesnt concentrate on the east more,, more battlefields would be lost at a greater rate than they would in the west. Unfortunitly land out here is very expensive(Slaughter Pen Prices)

where if you spread it out and acquired land before it is about to be developed you would get more bang for your buck

Yeah, only if the owner of that land is willing to sell it cheaper. Most farmers want the $$$$$ because they know they can get it. That is why the fed. gov. and local gov. are creating programs for farmers who keep their land historical. Until farmers are willing to take part in those programes,,,, the CWPT'S hands are tied and are forced to pay the price.

 My problem is the Mansfield revenues are buying Virginia land at the Slaughter Pen while Mansfield disappears and for that I am very angry.


I get your frustration, but dont blame the CWPT. Blame your local politicians. And local land owners.

 Doesn't this apply to the good folks in Virginia, most of the local authorities are the same no matter what their locale, they are looking at tax dollars and easy revenue versus strategically (sounds like the CWPT doesn't it?).  Doesn't matter if they are in VA, LA, TX or any of the 47 others.


All the politicians are the same, yes $$$$$$$$$$$$$ tax money. I do know the CWPT tries to preach using land to generate tourist dollars instead of tax revenue.

I think we all agree that the CWPT has done alot to preserve our battlefields. Imagin if the CWPT didn't exsist. Imagine 24,000 acres and counting lost forever to greedy development. We do support the CWPT, not for them, not for any Gov., not for me, not for anybody,,, its for the men that died on those battlefields, its for their sacrifice that I do it. Im not saying the Cwpt is perfect,, but think about what would happen if they weren't here. What would our future generations have left to see? Probably nothing. Lets get behind them and help keep our history.

                                        JR

PS: I dont work for them. Honest,,,,I dont.

Last edited on Fri Mar 30th, 2007 04:56 pm by Old Sorrel



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 Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 04:44 pm
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Old Sorrel
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THE FARMER ON HIS BOX

AND THE CWPT TRYING TO KISS A LITTLE..........





JUST A LITTLE HUMOR

Last edited on Fri Mar 30th, 2007 04:52 pm by Old Sorrel



 Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 06:37 pm
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David White
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Gentlemen:

 

My lip service comment was only in reference to Mansfield, the CWPT does do good things.  But in fact, they are using Mansfield.  If Mansfield were compared to a battered child, CWPT would be like some not for profit for the placement of battered children taking the pictures of the battered child and using his face to raise money for their cause and then when the kids says save me from my father, gets told, “We can’t help you until your father is arrested, then we’ll place you in foster care.”  So the kid says help me get him arrested and they reply, “Oh that’s not our charter.”   

 

Yes Lighthizer told us a year ago we buy land we don’t get involved in other preservation activities, come back when you have land to buy.  Okay well and good; we accepted that response.  But then the Gettysburg Casino thing happens and Lighthizer is all over that spending money and getting his face in the news because, yes, it’s popular.  No land to procure there but CWPT was all over it-- two faced again IMO.  But what do you expect from a career politician and media hound?  Don’t get me wrong, I do support them, minimally now.  My heart on this issue almost made me totally abandon them but my brain talked myself out of it.  I have an annual budget for CW preservation and CWPT just gets less of it because I want to direct the money toward the “battered child” who CWPT won’t help.  Yes, we’ve explained our displeasure to them but not in terms of this is why I’m not giving more.  If they ask, I’ll tell them, but I don’t expect them to ask and I don’t believe in playing that silly game anyway.  Besides I’m too small of a fish in their pond anyway.

 

Popular is not always correct, just look at American Idol and the Ponyhawk Kid (BTW, I don’t watch but hear stories ;)).  If popularity is the basis for setting the standard on anything, we’re lost in so many ways.  We could have the Krick-McMurry debate here (which I’ve seen and it is a sight) or I could tell you how Mansfield is one of the most critical battles of the war and has a more direct affect on today’s world than the Slaughter Pen or any battle in the east for that matter.  The affects of what happened at Mansfield on the post war migration patterns and economy of this country were tremendous.  Just because the general masses haven’t heard of it, doesn’t diminish its importance.  Just watch one episode of  Jay Walking on the Leno show will point out the fallacy of relying on  the general masses to set the correct standard.  Shame on you for even making that argument!  Besdies, the general masses probably don’t know about the Slaughter Pen either (and probably not even Little Round Top for that matter).

 

The mining company does not own the land but has long term leases with the poor people who own the land.  The only way we stop them is through a Clean Water Act violation or if they are desecrating soldier’s graves as we suspect.  A court injunction is the only way to get to the point where we can buy land because the mining company ignores anything else.  The grass roots organization, which needs my money much more than CWPT, is trying to do all that.

 

My giving for CW preservation used to be more national in scope, now it is more localized.  I gave to the Central Virginia Battlefield Trust for the Slaughter Pen so I find that a worthy project (enough money that they send me their semi-annual magazine).  I’m just jaded by this "the east is best and west is less" attitude that seems to even prevail on this board.



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 Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 07:50 pm
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David White
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Importance is a relative term and historians will tell you they usually contemplate what was, instead of what might have been when discussing it.

 

 

 



 Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 08:11 pm
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Old Sorrel
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Hi DW,

IM am now more intersted in this Mansfield site. Is there a local org. that excepts donations and how do you accomplish this

 But then the Gettysburg Casino thing happens and Lighthizer is all over that spending money and getting his face in the news because, yes, it’s popular.  No land to procure there but CWPT was all over it-- two faced again IMO.  But what do you expect from a career politician and media hound?  Don’t

You cant see the differance between gettysburg and mansfield. Do you think the casino idea in Gettysburg was a threat to the area? What would have happened if the CWPT didn't interveen? Gettysburg would have looked like Vegas.

Popular is not always correct, just look at American Idol and the Ponyhawk Kid (BTW, I don’t watch but hear stories ;)). 

I agree American Idol

I’m just jaded by this "the east is best and west is less" attitude that seems to even prevail on this board.



I never said that, like i said before, my wife and I went to Tenn. to visit as much civil war sites as we could(we also had to do the country music hall of fame, which was nice) I believe that some of the western battlefields are just as important if not more than some of the eastern battlefields. But, you have to admit, some battlefields in the west and east were more important battles than some other lesser know sites. And some of your bigger sites have a lot more casulties  which playes a big part in presevation.

I would like to read more on Mansfield since I dont know much about it. please forgive me.[url=http://If you could,, let me know if there's a web site on this battle and give me an address to help send a donation. I like to spread the wealth.

Thanks       OLD SORREL


Last edited on Fri Mar 30th, 2007 08:17 pm by Old Sorrel



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 Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 08:48 pm
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David White
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http://www.mansfieldbattlefield.org/ is one site working the issue but they are trying to be the "good cop" and use friendly persuasion to get the mining company to listen to reason.  If you want to help the "bad cop" go after the mining company, send money to the Austin Civil War Roundtable: 

http://www.austincivilwar.org/

Indicate you want the money to go toward the efforts to stop the mining at Mansfield.

Indy:

The world powers ignored the what might bes at the end of WW1 and now we have the mess in the Middle East to contend with as a result.  But if you want to talk only the what happened, Texas was spared the ravages of the war and basically jump started the southern economy via cattle and agriculture, then oil and finally high tech after the war.  The influx of people to Texas from the north and south because Texas was spared was tremendous and caused this boom.  Now for the might have been, if Banks wins at Mansfield he is pulling his own March to the Sea along with Sherman destroying east and central Texas, so it is no longer an economic Mecca after the war.  Hopefully that is not too Newt Gingrich.

Last edited on Fri Mar 30th, 2007 08:55 pm by David White



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 Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 08:54 pm
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javal1
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David:

You said -

"I could tell you how Mansfield is one of the most critical battles of the war and has a more direct affect on today’s world than the Slaughter Pen or any battle in the east for that matter.  The affects of what happened at Mansfield on the post war migration patterns and economy of this country were tremendous." 

This interests me immensely. I'd love to hear a more in-depth explanation of the ramifications of Mansfield. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing at all, just intriqued. BTW, I do the same thing you do as far as targeting donations to more grassroots organizations - usually friends groups. I enjoy the fact that I can often watch the tangible effects of my donation. Nothing wrong with that, and not meant as a slam to CWPT. They have their place and do good work, but so do the smaller groups. The important thing is that we give at all, not who we give to. 



 Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 09:08 pm
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David White
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Javal:

I agree 100% with what you say and do with regards to giving and the whole Mansfield episode opened my eyes and changed my philosophy as you can see, away from the bigger orgnaizaiton to the smaller ones.  Even the Friends of Mansfield are behaving too passive for my taste, maybe its my aggressive nature and lack of putting up with BS, I don't know.  Still giving to them makes me feel I get more bank for the buck.  No big staff at the FoMB just Gary Joiner and his wife.  My previous post sort of touches on what you were asking about, I think the only thing I would emphasize more if I got on my soapbox would be the significance of the oil industry that developed out of the influx of people to Texas and of course that has had an obvious impact on the world we live in as we are still wed to the oil industry started in Texas and it makes our lives happy (automobiles and freedom) and miserable at the same time (pollution, Middle East, captured British sailors/marines, etc, etc.).  I feel like I am developing a script for that British series Connections ( The first incarnation of course, it was better and less of a stretch than the second incarnation ;-)).



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 Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 05:17 am
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tennesseevols
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I agree with what has been said about inadvertent bias against Western Theatre battlefields when in comes to preservation.  Murfreesboro battlefield is on the brink of total destruction, yet it is ignored, while Gettysburg is given copious amounts of attention over a plan to build a casino miles from the battlefield there.  Also, the battlefields at Thompson's Station and Spring Hill are under enormous pressure as suburban development from Nashville creeps south along Highway 31 and I-65, but not much is heard about it.  Gettysburg battlefield, in my opinion, is in great shape, especially when compared to some other battlefields which might still be saved if prompt action is taken to do so.  Just my five cents.

Matt



 Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 06:37 am
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Talk about Western battlefields, there is the issue of Glorietta Pass.  it is endangered with housing developments encroaching on the Pass. 

 



 Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 06:37 am
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Talk about Western battlefields, there is the issue of Glorietta Pass.  it is endangered with housing developments encroaching on the Pass. 

 



 Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 09:55 am
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As to the specifics of Mansfield, yes they bought some land a few years ago but as to the current crisis with the mining they will not provide a dime to help the legal action, only publicity.
The CWPT's unofficial motto is "We buy dirt."  OK, if the dirt isn't for sale, or is beyond the CWPT's budget, what else can it do?  Raise public awareness to stimulate the locals to start their own organization (as other posters have mentioned), to pressure the municipal and state governments to take action.  How do you raise public awareness?  Through publicity.  Public opinion sometimes is more powerful than money.

Example:  Some years ago Di$ney wanted to build a theme park near Manassas National Battlefield Park in Prince William County, VA.  Oh yes, with all the plastic robots reenacting the battles, etc.  "Just think, all that history, right here on our own fake battlefield.  Lots of wonderful jobs for everybody."  Uh-huh, seasonal jobs at minimum wage, zillions of traffic on clogged roads.  Disney completely underestimated the power of public opinion and was laughed out of town.  They gave up.

There are other ways to preserve historic sites besides buying them outright.  Historic easements, tax breaks for private owners who agree to protect the sites.  But those methods require municipal or state legislation, which, again, will happen only if the voters demand it.

Patty



 Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 01:00 pm
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The CWPT does yeomans work; it is far more effective than any federal or state program IMHO.  Is it perfect?  NO, but it's a far cry more effective than the alternative.  THey've done far more than any other organization I can think of; and most importantlly I trust the $ I send along toward them to actually be applied to their purpose.  No fatcat CEO or Board of directors skimming.

 

It is amusing to see though how little has changed... the war was won in the west and the newspapers fought it in the east.  Media still can't get it right.



 Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 12:31 pm
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Widow
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Johan, I agree that the war was won in the west.  But I read somewhere that there were more battles in Virginia than in any other state, with Tennessee second on the list.  The newspapers followed the armies, not vice versa.

Here's an extreme example: Winchester, VA, in the Shenandoah Valley, changed hands something like 72 times.

Patty



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