Civil War Interactive Discussion Board Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register
Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > Civil War Preservation > Preservation is an eastern theater problem


Preservation is an eastern theater problem - Civil War Preservation - Civil War Talk - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
 Moderated by: javal1 Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  Next Page Last Page  
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
You have chosen to ignore indy19th. click Here to view this post


You have chosen to ignore indy19th. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 07:06 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
43rd Post
David White
Member


Joined: Tue Sep 6th, 2005
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 909
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Indy:

Don't forget that if Mansfield is lost, Steele makes it to Shreveport unopposed and he's no Sherman either but you have his force and Banks to wreak havoc in Texas.  Of course A.J. Smith's Corps would have been sent back to Sherman from Banks' army for the Georgia Campaign but this would have left Texas open to an unopposed invasion for much of 1864 and even though a smaller force would have been employed, they would have had half of 1864 to do it.  As it was, the March to the Sea damage was done in basically two months.  So even though Banks would have had a third of the men, he would have had about four times the time to do it with (May-December).

As to Lightzner, sure its a politicians perogative to change his mind.  Doesn't mean I have to like his change and don't get to scratch my head about when the standard applies and when it doesn't.  We asked for a solicitation of the members to help with the defense but he refused since we didn't have land to buy.  In his defense, he has decided it is a lost cause, pardon the pun.  I'm starting to agree with him on that as well.  I mean if we can't convince Civil War enthusiats like you that Mansfield is worth saving then how do we convince people who have never heard of it.   Lightzner tried to meet with Swepco at their invitation.  They left him cooling his heels in the lobby for a great length of time then sent a flunky down to speak to him in BS terms.  He left the meeting and said there was no working with a group like that.  He's right they will only react to hardball--sort of like it's going to be with Iran.  Still I don't think all has been done that should  have been tried.  I just want to throw the first fastball and stop playing softball with these jerks, becasue every day they destroy more of the battlefield and probably dig up the graves of Union soldiers.

 



You have chosen to ignore indy19th. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 02:49 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
45th Post
David White
Member


Joined: Tue Sep 6th, 2005
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 909
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

If I had to compare it to an already partially saved battlefield it is getting more and more like Murfreesboro.  The action in the center is saved by the small state park and previous acquisitions by CWPT.  The action on the flanks is disappearing or at least in Mansfield's case being altered to the point where the terrain is different from what the soldiers who fought there would recognize.

If the modus operandi of the CWPT were not going after the problem because it is too hard or controversial when it started, they never would have gotten off the ground and Brandy Station would be racetrack.



 Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 11:51 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
46th Post
Widow
Member
 

Joined: Tue Sep 19th, 2006
Location: Oakton, Fairfax County, VA
Posts: 321
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

David White wrote, about what would have happened if the CWPT hadn't acted,Brandy Station would be racetrack.
Yes, the Brandy Station Foundation was very grateful for the CWPT's help.  More land has been bought recently.  By the way, David, you would be pleased to see that Culpeper County is still rural and stunningly pretty, even though there are pressures creeping west from Fredericksburg.

One of the members of my Bull Run RT has taken high-level officials on walking tours of the Brandy Station battlefields, including Fleetwood Hill.  I mean congressmen, the Secretary of the Interior, the Director of the NPS.

Another member of the RT has taken the Fairfax County Supervisors on a walking tour of the historic part of Centreville.  Their reactions were "I had no idea this was here!" 

As for Lighthizer's being a politician, seems to me that the preservation community NEEDS somebody with the skills and contacts to deal with Capitol Hill and the Department of Interior.  Let's face it, our little Friends of xxx and county historical societies are shoestring operations depending on a few dedicated volunteers.  No clout, no money.


An umbrella organization, working at the national level, can have a much greater effect than many small local groups.

I agree with the posts that ultimately it's up to the local citizens to save their heritage.  If they're not convinced of its value, then no amount of outside money can save it.  How can we convince anybody of that when Civil War history is barely mentioned in the school curriculum?  Even in Virginia, for pete's sake!

Susan, step in here, you've got plenty to say about that.

Patty



 Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 02:12 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
47th Post
susansweet
Member


Joined: Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location: California USA
Posts: 1420
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Gee Patty put me on the spot. Yes I do have some opinions on this.  In California the Civil War is now part of the 8th grade curriculum .  I have not sat in on an 8th grade class so don't know how indepth they do go.  I do know that UCLA has a Civil War curriculum that includes several classes.  Joan Waugh a professor there in the history department spoke to our Round Table about Lowell  this past year. 

Teachers are required to teach so many things and everyone has their pet subject that they want to have taught.  I know at one time I was told that the leaders in Sacramento had pasted a law that flossing should be taught in schools. 

I served on I think six  text book selection committees for Social Studies in my 30 year career teaching.  My main interest , was first grade of course but I did listen to all the presentations.  Parents on the committee had their agendas, teachers had theirs.  You must teach this, you can't teach that, We should teach this.  It is crazy and always ends up a compromise. 

That said I was told this week end the Academic Decathalon this year will focus on the Civil War !!! yahoo. 

As to preservation  it takes all of us every minute and cent we can muster to keep the  assassins of the hallowed ground from being destroyed.  We need politicians, trusts , hardworking grassroots groups , all of us together to stop "progress"

I attended a dinner with the chief of staff (not sure that is the right term) for a local congressman.   I don't agree with his politics at all , but he supports the Civil War  preservation.  I never said a negative word at the meeting .  He is now our connection in Washington.  Visits the Drum when he is in town even.  

We all need to work together and not fight between each other.  Present a solid front. 

It was a school teacher that saved the Drum,  got people interested and involved.  She helped to save the only Civil War building left in Los Angeles area, actually in all of Southern California .  There are sites in Northern California.

Geeze I did go on there, Stepping down off my soap box now. 

Susan



 Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 01:17 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
48th Post
Widow
Member
 

Joined: Tue Sep 19th, 2006
Location: Oakton, Fairfax County, VA
Posts: 321
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

No soap box, Susan, but a well-written comment about the struggle to educate our kids about history, and especially Civil War history.We need politicians, trusts , hardworking grassroots groups , all of us together to stop "progress"

I agree completely.  To extend it beyond historic preservation, it's always been our way to effect or resist change from the grass roots upward.  Think of Rachel Carson, Ralph Nader, Martin Luther King Jr.  It may take decades to change public opinion, but finally, we make it happen, by discussion and compromise.

There are few other countries in the world where the people have the power and the voice to manage their own lives and communities.  The Ministry of Education controls curriculum and teacher qualifications.  The Ministry of Health decrees non-smoking places.  The Ministry of Finance decides where the tax money is spent.  In France, the Academie Francaise decrees which foreign words are prohibited in written French.

Whoops, here I am, hijacking my own thread.  Well, I was just trying to illustrate how grass-roots organizations, local and national, really do have power.

To get back to my topic, I mean our Civil War preservation community.

Patty



You have chosen to ignore indy19th. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 05:59 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
50th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

What can the CWPT do if this is the attitude of a lot of people?

We should first admit that us CW freaks are in the minority, and most citizens don't understand our fixation with walking the ground, analyzing battles and attempting to sense the history. And then we might ask ourselves if the economic viability of Murfreesboro is better served by battlefield preservation or commercial sprawl?

This is what the City Administrators face. They were elected, presumably, to keep the city competitive and growing (what doesn't grow, dies). Seems they'd need to be  convinced that battlefield preservation would be a wise investment in the city's future. Would it be?

Ole



You have chosen to ignore indy19th. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 10:48 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
52nd Post
Widow
Member
 

Joined: Tue Sep 19th, 2006
Location: Oakton, Fairfax County, VA
Posts: 321
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

indy 19th wrote:One "exception" though, is that people come and go. The battlefield, if it's preserved, stays there forever. People relocate like never before. A lot, more or less, are just there for a blink in time. I'd hate to think that a handful of board members come in, do their damage, and then move on to somewhere else.  Same thing with developers.

All that being said, I'm not going to stop making donations to preservation organizations.

Excellent point, indy, about move in, dig up, move on.

We must consider the effects on our future generations.  Most people hate studying history because they think it's so dry.  Well, if taught dry, sure.  But kids learn by doing.  Take a group to a battlefield, march them around for a while, order them into line of battle, pretend to shoot, and tell them which ones just got killed.  Let the music class study Civil War tunes.  Let the arithmetic class caldulate how many wagons to deliver how much food and ammo.  Let the geography class study the rivers and mountains, coastlines and forts.  Let the science class study how much forage, hay and grain, to keep a mule healthy and strong.  How many calories a man needs when he's marching, camping, and fighting.

If it can't be included in the curriculum, form a history club through the PTA.  These actions aren't directly related to preservation, but just think how baffled the kids would be if they couldn't go to the places.  "Daddy, did they really fight in the mall?"  Reasonable question if you're 11 and have can't visualize that the mall was once farmland or woods.

I'm not opposed to growth and development.  Heck, my condo building is in the suburbs, where would we live without new housing?  Just don't do it in places where the damage is irreversible and harmful to us all, like wetlands along stream valleys, and historic sites.

Patty



 Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 02:53 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
53rd Post
susansweet
Member


Joined: Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location: California USA
Posts: 1420
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Patty you hit on exactly how to teach history.  One of the best things I did , not really as a teacher but as a  substitute for the teacher who was ill was spent the night with fifth graders on a 19th tall ship that was standing in for the 2 years Before the Mast Pilgrim.  It is 1834 We are sailing with Richard Henry Dana to Alta California.  The ship was tired up to the dock at the Marine Lab at Dana Point.  We never left the dock all night. 24 hours before the Mast.  The kids loved it and learned so much about what it was like.

My fifth grade friend also did a colonial day and a  Oregon Trail day.  Each student research a craftsman of the colonial times and reported on it , including making something .  These were so successful.  Anything hands on.  In first grade I did Thanksgiving feast and trust me it wasn't paper hats with buckles and big white collars.  No buckles no colors.  I had tons of material from Plimonth Plantation. 

I would hope our 8th grade does more than what I saw once on their website.  It listed showing the mini series Blue and Grey which I thought was horrible. 

There were so many kids out at Prado this past week end with questions their teachers gave them to ask all of us.   We got quite a discussion growing about the greatest cavalry officer .  The kids were standing their with their mouths hanging open at the passion the discussion was taking .  They ended up writing all the answers down.

One dad ask us to explain why study history.  We all said at one time We study the past to learn about the future.   Nobody had discussed it before we said it all at the same time. 

I really think the more hands on you make things for children the better the learning .  especially young children.  Sadly money is not there for field trips as it should be.  Buses are expensive now with the high rate of gas , etc. 

Then you also have to convince principals that assemblies with a soldier etc is worthwhile .  Most schools also don't allow weapons of any kind of campus with the zero tolerance laws. 

I had a knight from Medieval times once to talk to my first graders.  They sure learned how heavy a broad sword was .  None of them could lift it. 

Oh that was the other fifth grade field trip Renaissance Faire on School Day.  It has been cut back because of expense though from the faire end.  Use to be Workshop in the Woods and went on daily during the week with many activities.  I had former students come by and tell me all they learned for many years. 

sigh I don't know the answers but we must somehow get kids interested in the past history and perserve the sites for them in the future.

Susan retired but still when the bell rings starts teaching . 



 Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 07:19 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
54th Post
Widow
Member
 

Joined: Tue Sep 19th, 2006
Location: Oakton, Fairfax County, VA
Posts: 321
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Susan

I've never had kids and I've never taught school.  But I'm fully qualified as an interested observer.  And I've always loved history.

I've lived in Virginia since 1965, and was completely ignorant of the Civil War community.  Drove past Manassas NBP en route elsewhere.  Now that I'm in, I'm amazed how large our community is, with its various subsets, from magazines to outfitters, genealogists to relic hunters.  How come I never noticed?

Lack of public awareness, which brings us right back to the difficulties of preservation.

Patty



 Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 09:26 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
55th Post
susansweet
Member


Joined: Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location: California USA
Posts: 1420
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Patty we discovered the Civil War about the same time ,  I saw that sign on my first trip that said Pea Ridge, I turned in and was hooked.  Took a class at the high school and set off again the next year to see as much as possible.  Came home to a reeneactment in our local park on Labor Day.  I walked up and there was a booth Civil War Round Table and Drum Barracks.  I said to them I have been looking for you and didn't know you were here. I wrote a check that day to join the round table , I have only missed one meeting since then.  That was three years ago.  From there I join the book group at the Drum, then became a docent .  I subscirbe to all the magazines, and now also am a Daughter of Union and Confederate vets.  What a change in five years.  I too marvel at the extent of the group.  Now I look forward to the trivia here and this board.  I feel like I have friends in all different places that enjoy learning about the War as much or more than I do.  I would love to see Johan and Steve Cone  reenact ,Visit Shiloh and Corinth with Cal Cav, Visit JDC at the fort where he is a docent now. Tour battle fields  with you .  etc etc.  I know I have skipped some people Ole , Joanie  Cleburne Fan, Fuller .  All of you and more.  You all add to my day when I read your posts .  Sometimes we are silly sometimes very serious.  I have learned so much from all of you.  I am looking forward to many more post from all. 

Now about that trivia question yesterday.  I was up all night looking for the answer  That was a good one.,  nice thing is I am retired I can do that. 

Susan



 Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 10:16 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
56th Post
39th Miss. Walker
Member
 

Joined: Tue May 1st, 2007
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 80
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

What major battlefields need protected in South Carolina?

What's left in South Carolina that needs to be protected that isn't already?



Indy19, how can you possibly say that about South Carolina. Most of the fortifications around Columbia are still in danger. Many fortifications around Charleston are in private hands, what hasn't been developed. Morris Island is still in negotiations. The actual site of what is left of Battery Wagner isn't in the deal from what I am told.
With one exception all of the fortifications still standing south of Charleston are in private hands. We just saved two batteries on Highway 17 from destruction from the state DOT. The Battle sites at Coosawatchie and Pocotaligo are not protected. The Earthworks at Honey Hill, and in the vicinity of Pocotaligo are in danger from logging and development. What of Castle Pinckney? Sitting in the harbor still filled with cannon, buried in mud, untouched from the end of the war, slowly deteriorating.
Very few CW related sites are protected or even identified! We need help in South Carolina as well.
But as has been posted unless the locals care then what is to be done? One of the problems is the changing population of the areas. Whereas 50 years ago in Virginia or South Carolina or Georgia most of the population was native born and raised. Today that figure is dropping to as low as 60% in Virginia.
It is up to all of us to do the education for without educating the citizens they feel no need to save something. Further muddying the waters is the Confederate Battle flag controversy and the PC tearing down of anything remotely connected to the Confederacy, from the flag to the song Dixie. If it is Confederate it is under siege.

Last edited on Tue May 1st, 2007 10:19 pm by 39th Miss. Walker



You have chosen to ignore indy19th. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Thu May 3rd, 2007 11:15 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
58th Post
39th Miss. Walker
Member
 

Joined: Tue May 1st, 2007
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 80
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Should only "Major Battlefields" be saved from development? What exactly is a "major battlefield"?



You have chosen to ignore indy19th. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Fri May 4th, 2007 10:02 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
60th Post
susansweet
Member


Joined: Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location: California USA
Posts: 1420
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Battle of Secessionville , near Charleston,  Interesting the Swamp Angel that was used by the Union to shell Charleston is now in New Jersey.   Would be nice to have more signage along the route of Potter's raid toward the end of the war.  Columbia burning was major inccident .  Thank goodness Blue and Grey had a driving tour  for Columbia and for Secessionville.  I had a flyer from a friend of Potter's raid , still have to go back and do more on that one. 

The major restoration in South Carolina is Florence Stockade  in Florence .  The friends of the stockade need help to restore the site.  They have purchased the land which has never been developed.  They are hoping to make it a site to honor the three groups who were there.  The union prisoners, the confederate guards and the slaves that built it.   Next to the site of the stockade is the National Cemetery that holds the body of the first woman buried in a national cemetery Florena Budwin who was discovered to be a woman when she fell ill in the stockade. 

Prisoners were taken here when Union forces were nearing Andersonville. 



 Current time is 11:43 amPage:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  Next Page Last Page  
Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > Civil War Preservation > Preservation is an eastern theater problem
Top




UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.4541 seconds (10% database + 90% PHP). 38 queries executed.