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 Posted: Fri Jul 13th, 2007 12:18 pm
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PvtClewell
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Yeah, but Joanie, even 'at that time,' at Gettysburg, some of Lee's men are rounding up free blacks and slaves and sending them back south into captivity. They are also demanding tribute in places like Hanover, Shippensburg and Chambersburg while burning down abolitionist Thaddeus Stephens' Caledonia Iron Works and the Carlisle Barracks, among other things. Oh yes, while we're at it, the Rebs make good on their 'purchases' from the Yankees with worthless vouchers. ("Thanks, Marse Robert. I'll be in Richmond next week to redeem this note for the 300 cattle you just bought from me.") Doesn't sound like a faith-based war strategy to me. And it happens right here, at Gettysburg.

Don't think Jackson would have made much difference, either. Some 21st century observers might see Jackson as a lemon-sucking (he liked all fruits, actually, especially peaches) religious nut who thought one of his arms was longer than the other. Hmm. At Fredericksburg, when asked what to do about the overwhelming numbers of Federals facing his front, Old Jack says 'to kill them, sir. Kill them all.' Did he say that from his pulpit, I wonder?

Note: I think the nature of the war really changes at Fredericksburg. Gentleman Georgie McClellan is gone and roundly defeated Union troops say the order to respect private property 'is all played out," no matter what Burnside wants. The Union ransacks Fredericksburg and the war changes its tone forever — for both sides.

I have no plans to abandon the hill. Discussion of the hill is endless. We can make a mountain out of it, if we want (and I'm afraid we will). Look forward to your maps. You might ought to get them copyrighted, what with being on the net and all.



 Posted: Fri Jul 13th, 2007 01:49 pm
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javal1
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You want maps - you got it. These were created by a talented gentleman named Hal Jespersen, who kindly put them in the public domain:

Culp's Hill Defenses

Culp's Hill Day 2 Evening



 Posted: Fri Jul 13th, 2007 03:09 pm
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David White
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I know Steuart gets heavy criticsim for his actions or lack thereof on JUly 2 but that second map makes it look like he should have just rolled up the Union line on Culp's Hill.  Don't think it was quite like that.



 Posted: Fri Jul 13th, 2007 06:07 pm
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ole
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Think of The AotP, under McCellan, who wanted a "gentleman's peace",  vs under Grant, whom wanted an end to the war, period. 

Spot on, Joanie. Even that archvillain, Sherman, early in the war, demanded that his troops respect civilians and their property, and pay for what they took. The situation started changing somewhere around the end of 1862. At that point, advocacy of an end to the war, whatever the means, gained strength.

We sometimes forget that wars are fought on the basis of civilian forebearance. Lincoln, Grant, et al., had another front: fading civilian support. The Confederacy survived longer than reasonable because of a remarkable civilian commitment. (Hence, Sherman's determination to dampen that somewhat.)

Very much appreciate the "at that time." The war went on for very nearly four years and each of the 48 months therein saw changes in military and public perceptions.

ole



 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 01:25 am
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JoanieReb
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Hey, I finally got a chance to look at the Maps in the new Map Room, and I think we have everything we need there for the "That Hill" discussion!  Notice, they are "time-lined" and easy to follow; and the Overview map, "Gettysburg, Day 1" shows the afternoon/evening assault positions nicely.  Along with the Culp's Hill maps, I don't think I need to do anything more in the way of map-drawing.  We can each print them off and add anything further we feel necessary.  Thanks so much, Joe!

I'm going to celebrate by sleeping tonight!  And, Hal Jespersen did an great job,  my thanks to him.

So, let's get back to That Hill.

Joanie



 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2007 02:12 am
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ole
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What hill?

ole



 Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 12:12 am
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JoanieReb
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Ole wrote:

"What hill?"

So, Ole, Whom are you quoting here, Ewell, or Early? Sorry:shock::P;):cool:.

Anyway,

General Clewell will explain about "That Hill":   I have a free pass for physical therapy and back to work full-time in three days!!!!!

Also, an armload of books.... Pro'bly I'll be back here at Cwi Friday night....I've picked up a number of recommended books, so hopefully I'll have something provacative to say.  If not, I'll just make something up: Big Smile:D:cool:,

Joanie

Last edited on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 12:22 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 12:22 am
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PvtClewell
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Actually, by now, I think I'm pretty much over the hill. At least, that's what my friends say. :D



 Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 01:26 am
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ole
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I was here first, General.:shock:

Joanie, you keep carrying armloads of books before you're fully recuperated and your surgeon is going to make nasty faces at you.

ole:(



 Posted: Thu Jul 19th, 2007 05:30 pm
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JoanieReb
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I rather liked the summary and maps of the first day's activity of the battle found here:

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/gettysburg/getty11.aspx

Very simple and straight-forward.



 Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 01:03 am
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JoanieReb
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In going over the maps, I have begun wondering about this:

Pettigrew, on June 30th, had warned Heth that there might be a considerable Yankee force in G-Burg.  Hill and Heth decided that such would not be the case, and Heth could take his division into town.  Still, it seems that reasonable caution should have been taken.

Yet, Heth put his weakest brigades in front:  Archer's had been reduced to 1000 men, and Davis had never seen battle before.

Pettigrew's fresh 2550 men and Brockenbaugh's veteran Virginians were kept in reserve.

I don't know WHAT the rationale for this was.  Perhaps the battle would have been quite different if Pettigrew and Brockenbaugh had led the way.

Whose responsibility was it, ultimately, to determine that order:  Heth's or A.P. Hill's?

 

 



 Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 02:18 am
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PvtClewell
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The big question for me, and I've never really found an adequate answer for it, is that Heth took a whole division into town when he wasn't supposed to bring on a general engagement. What's that all about? If it's a reconaissance, even in force, it's overkill. Sounds like he was looking for a fight.

The excuse he was looking for shoes doesn't wash, either, since the Rebs were rummaging in town a few days earlier.

Not sure if it changes much who the Rebs initially put on the front line. They still meet up with Buford's boys, who I think were armed with breech-loading Sharps' carbines, which is significant technology. I think that still buys the Feds time to allow Reynolds and the First Corps (and the Iron Brigade, the best of the best, Ms. Michigan) to arrive on the scene.

Heth's the division commander, I guess it's his call to place his brigades where he wants them. But brigades alternate position in a line of march from day to day so the brigades in the rear one day aren't always eating the dust of those in front the next day. It could be on this particular day, Heth's best brigades just didn't happen to be up front when they deployed.



 Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 03:13 am
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JoanieReb
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General Clewell,

Very interesting points!

I've come to think about it like this:

Heth was an honorable gentleman.  If he said he went into G-burg to look for shoes, I believe him.  Of course, he was also quite the fighter, and looking for shoes does not preclude looking for a fight at the same time ;):D.  He might not bring on a general engagement, but he wouldn't say "no" if someone else brought one on, and no harm in being prepared, right?

I'm not sure to what extent he expected to find shoes.  But, I'm fairly sure he expected to find a Blue-Belly or two :shock::?.

As for taking a whole division along, well, it certainly does make one wonder, doesn't it? Seems like he expected a little more than a family outing and some bonding time among The Boys.

I guess he didn't expect to find anything as imposing as Buford's calvary - who WERE armed with with the best and newest in the way of guns, and taught to fight on foot as well as on horseback. 

I do think, that if Heth was looking for (or at least preparing for) a fight as well as shoes, he should have put his best feet forward.  But, as you say, perhaps the point is moot.  It still strikes me as one of the many mistakes incurred by The ANV at G-burg.  Kind of a prelude to the many errors to come....

I have the greatest repect for the Iron Brigade.  They were almost as good as The Texas Brigrade, Mr. North Carolina :P:D:D:D;);):).

Last edited on Fri Jul 20th, 2007 10:48 pm by JoanieReb



 Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 03:02 pm
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David White
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Don't forget missing JEB!  Without knowledge of what is out there, I want as many men as possible as I march out into the unknown.



 Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 04:04 pm
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Texas Defender
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   Wow, Joanie- I never imagined that the NVA was at Gettysburg. Pretty scary for this old soldier.  :shock:



 Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 10:40 pm
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JoanieReb
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Oh - no!!!!

I'm suffering from double-post disorder!

Has anyone read Catch-22?:  "I see everything twice!"!

(The "twin post" is right below this one)

Last edited on Fri Jul 20th, 2007 11:04 pm by JoanieReb



 Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 10:40 pm
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JoanieReb
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Texas Defender wrote:

 Wow, Joanie- I never imagined that the NVA was at Gettysburg. Pretty scary for this old soldier. 

Ah, thanks for catching that, TD :shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:!

I'm editing a paper concerning The War in Vietnam (or is it "The Vietnam War", or simply "Vietnam" - what to call That War?,:D) this week, and I have temporary "Jumbled-Abbreviation-Head Disorder".  I must remember, I am crossing time-zones and continents now:  double-check ALL abbreviations!

Joanie

 

Last edited on Fri Jul 20th, 2007 10:44 pm by JoanieReb



 Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 11:13 pm
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Texas Defender
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   Joanie-

      I guess I'm one of the ones with: "Too much free time."   :cool:



 Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 12:32 am
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JoanieReb
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Sincerely Doubt it, TD.

You rarely post here, but every time you do, I've got the feeling I'm dealing with an awfully sharp stake and should watch my step.  You've either got some crafty subtleties going on, or that "silence is golden thing" is making me think that "still waters run deep" (how's that for mixing metaphors all throughout this post?).

I'm guessing that you are getting a few more people than me to sharpen up.

But, I'm just guessing...

Joanie



 Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 01:14 am
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Texas Defender
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Joanie,

  I'm not Irish, but I know a little of the language. There is a saying that I like: "Eist moran agus can beagan. ("Hear much and say little."). You learn more that way. I am always ready to take a lesson- or to give one. :cool:



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