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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > The Lounge > Non-Civil War Books, Movies, Music, etc. > "God Is Not Great" by Hitchens |
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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > The Lounge > Non-Civil War Books, Movies, Music, etc. > "God Is Not Great" by Hitchens |
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| "God Is Not Great" by Hitchens | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28th, 2007 04:08 pm |
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1st Post |
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booklover Member 
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Just curious if anyone has read (or plans to read) this. I started it the other day and I'm not really sure how I feel about it yet. Really, in the first chapter, Hitchens doesn't make too many points that I haven't heard before. Truth be told, I'm not a Christian but I can't consider myself an athiest either. Agnostic is the best way to describe me, but that seems kind of wishy-washy as well. As I said, just curious. Best Rob
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28th, 2007 06:20 pm |
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2nd Post |
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javal1 Grumpy Geezer 
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Rob, I have every intention of reading it, but probably not till it hits either the bargain bin or the library. Hitchens has been on so many talk shows pushing it, I almost feel like I heard everything that's in the book  Be sure to drop a review here when you finish it...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28th, 2007 09:38 pm |
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3rd Post |
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ole Member 
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Have seen him on BookTV discussing the book. Can't say as I'm driven to make the time to read it. ole
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30th, 2007 07:26 pm |
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4th Post |
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younglobo Member 
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Have not heard of this book . But it probably won't change my mind if i do . Belong to a good bible teaching church that probably would explain or shoot down most of his objects or theory. Besides my experiences with God don't agree with the Title. Last edited on Mon Jul 30th, 2007 07:26 pm by younglobo |
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2007 02:31 am |
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5th Post |
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booklover Member
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Sadly, my experiences in a fundamentalist church weren't that pleasant. While I certainly don't look down at anyone who professes the Christian (or any other) faith, I find most of the messages that I have heard from the pulpit don't really ring true to me. As soon as I get the book read, I will post my thoughts. Best Rob
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2007 02:52 pm |
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6th Post |
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younglobo Member
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Rob The key to any church is the staff, there ability to explain things to you and answer your questions , my associate pastor is excellent at that . Most of my questions are solved one on one after a sermon or lesson . Most pastors have a ton of knowledge to share if you just ask. If you have questions feel free to PM me and I will do my best to get you an answer.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2007 11:54 pm |
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7th Post |
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booklover Member
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Younglobo, I certainly do appreciate your willingness to help, but I'm afraid it's gone far beyond that for me. Truthfully, if I still didn't carry some of what I call the "fundamentalist fear" I most likely would consider myself an atheist. At this point, I would probably fit along the deist line of thinking, even though some of that wouldn't hold true for me. Thanks! Best Rob
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| Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2007 02:28 pm |
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8th Post |
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David White Member 
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Booklover: Too bad about your experiences but is your issue with the message or the messenger? Sounds like the latter. If it's the message, what doesn't ring true, because even the Deists believe in God and his greatness? If the issue is the messenger, just remember we have only had one perfect messenger, all other are corrupt in some way and a few much worse than others. If you are waiting for the perfect messenger, He's only coming back one more time and by then it may be too late for the message. Don't mean to preach at you, so I'll apologize in advance if I'm coming across that way.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 12:38 am |
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9th Post |
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booklover Member
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David, As you get to know me, you'll find (I hope) that I'm pretty laid back when it comes to most things. I certainly did not take any offense at anything you've said to me, or any one else for that matter. I guess my problem is with both the message and the messenger. Tell you what--let me finish the book, I'll write what I think of it and go into a little more detail as to where I'm coming from. Best Rob
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| Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 04:39 pm |
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10th Post |
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David White Member
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Booklover: Having neither heard of the book or author your post got me to at least go to Amazon and find out what the book has to say. I forced myself to read the reviews and comments after reading the subtitle of the book How Religion Poisons Everything. That told me that the author has an axe to grind. Also that subtitle is patently untrue from my personal experience, where I know my church has contributed to saving lives in our community (without trying to convert I might add and regardless of faith or lack thereof). But after reading all the comments and reviews my feelings are along the lines of Younglobo's and Ole's. Still interested in hearing your take after you finish it. Unfortunately, religion gets tainted by those who falsely use it to their advantage. We seem to deplore sterotypes in modern culture, with the exception of lawyers, politicians and religion. IMO, two are justified, the other isn't .
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| Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 10:44 pm |
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11th Post |
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Doc C Member 
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As I grow older, wider and hopely wiser I find myself becoming more spiritual and less religious. Religion to me has always been a personal experience without labels. Doc C
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20th, 2007 04:06 am |
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12th Post |
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booklover Member
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Well, this is what happens to me when I'm trying to read too much at once...it takes me forever to get a book finished. Truth be told, I didn't finish this one so much as decide to stop reading it. Before I go into any further detail, let me give you a little background as to where I'm coming from. My childhood experience with religion started out like most people in that we went to church both Sunday morning and night. I was obviously too young to get much out of the sermon but I did like the singing and the games we got to play. All that changed in June of 1969 when at the age of 39, my father died of a massive heart attack (I was the youngest, at age 5). We went to church a little bit, but very few people from the church ever tried to help or support us. My mother raised four children by herself, never asking for welfare or food stamps, although we would have more than qualified. There were some good people from the church who helped out but most people ignored us as if we were lepers. My views of organized religion went even further south when, at the age of 10, I got a visit from "some good people from the church" who decided that it was their responsibility to save my soul from perdition. I was listening to them when one said something that to this day tells me all I ever needed to know about organized religion and the church. This man told me that if I didn't accept Jesus and didn't start going to church, when I died not only would I not go to Heaven, but I would never get to see my father ever again. I told this idiot that I would believe what I wanted and they could believe what they wanted. From that day forward I only went to church under protest. Fast forward to about six years ago. My mother was diagonosed with colon cancer which had spread to her liver. By this point in my life I had pretty well decided that I would never call myself a Christian and that I had no business praying to something that I wasn't sure even existed. To me it would be the ultimate hypocrisy to pray for my mother's recovery when I refused to pray for anything else. Of course I wanted her to get well, but if anything saved her, it would be modern science. After the realization came that my mother was dying, I began to get angry, especially when people would tell me that I couldn't understand this because it was all part of some magical plan that only God understood. If my mother's slow painful death was part of a plan of God, then God is a cruel and unmerciful bastard that I want nothing to do with. You know the hardest part of seeing someone die? It isn't the actual death because you can prepare yourself for that. It's watching someone who raised four children on her own and who was the most vital person I've ever known unable to control her bowels and crying after having an accident and not being able to clean it up. It's seeing her reduced to wearing a diaper like a little baby because of it. It's lying next to her hospital bed hearing her moan and cry because when she could fall asleep, she couldn't hide the fact that she was in immeasurable pain. The only conclusion I could draw was 1) God is cruel; 2) There is no God; 3) or God is not all-powerful and could not cure my mother. If it was 1 or 2, then there was no reason to be a Christian. If it was 3, I couldn't see any reason for God to even exist. As I said in one of my earlier posts, I don't hold anyone who believes in God up to ridicule because they have just as much right to believe as I do not to believe. And that brings us back to Hitchen's book. Much of what he wrote I agree with. In most cases religion came about because people were either trying to escape their fear of death or to understand natural phenomina that they couldn't explain. Far too much violence and pain has been caused by religions of all stripes, not just Christianity. Much of what is written in the Bible is just too difficult to believe and much of it doesn't make sense. Let me give you an example. I asked a co-worker who wears her virginity on her sleeve to show me in the Bible where it says that two people cannot have sex before they are married. The only thing she could come up with is when Paul tells the Corinthians to flee from sexual immorality. OK, who decides what is sexually immoral? Jesus never said anything about it. It came from Paul, who seems to me to have obvious issues with women himself. In fact, much of the New Testament came from Paul. I know many will say that it was inspired by God, but you should read many of the books available on what was left out by the early Christian fathers and how the King James bible was put together. What I didn't like about Hitchens' book is that he says much of this in a sneering tone that isn't helpful to someone who is truly trying to figure out what he or she believes in when it comes to God and religion. But having read Hitchens for several years now, I don't know why that surprises me. I would have a hard time recommending someone buy this book, even though I do agree with much of what he said. Best Rob
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 08:20 pm |
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13th Post |
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younglobo Member
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Rob Just read your latest post , heartbreaking story let me collect my thoughts and get back to you on it. Michael
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 10:16 pm |
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14th Post |
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javal1 Grumpy Geezer
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booklover - Sorry to see that review, simply because I think arrogance is the exact wrong way to rebutt the subject of secularism vs. theological arguments. I can only speak of my personal experiences, but the most arrogant, self-rightous people I've ever met are the highly religious people who think it's their right to attempt to inflict their beliefs on me, and then feel justified to judge my character if I don't swallow it. The way to counter that is not to adapt the same strategy (arrogance), but simply to point it out, present intellectual arguments highlighting certain contradictions, certain hypocritical failures of logic, and anti-scientific rhetoric. I'm not sure what Hitchin's goal was. Heaping scorn on the religious people of this country is as unappetizing as them doing it to agnostics and atheists. It serves no purpose.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 02:29 pm |
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15th Post |
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David White Member
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Javal: There is a stinging rebuttal to people like that, Matthew 7:1. Don't hold their evangelism against them, the Bible does call Christians to do that but a more effective way IMO is by a life of example for others. My problem with a guy like Hutchins is he likes to throw the words of Christians back at them when they stray from the righteous path and say, "see they are all hypocrites" when in fact they are just sinners (as everyone but Christ was). If mankind were perfect, there would have been no need for Christ's sacrifice. Unfortunately Booklover's sad experience shows why people are easily led down that road of thought, as I gather he feels similarly toward religion and its devotees and who can blame him. But I believe the answer to how to deal with religious zealots is found in the Christianity they claim to profess, forgive their tresspasses as you would want your's forgiven.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 03:11 pm |
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16th Post |
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booklover Member
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David, I appreciate your comments. Even though I doubt I will ever call myself a Christian, I try to maintain an open mind with people who are, because I know that to paint all Christians as zealous and judgmental is intellectually dishonest. As I said, there were people who helped my family after my father's death. Many of those same people helped my mother after her cancer diagnosis as well. Whether they helped because of their faith or simply because they were good people I'm not sure. But unfortunately those people seem to get pushed aside because of the attitude of those who are judgmental. Somewhere I read that the church was the only organization that shoots it own wounded,which at times seems true. Let me give you an example. The church I was associated with had a minister who was a very good man. He lived his Christianity and even though I disagreed with many of the doctrinal stands he took, I could see that he honestly and sincerely tried to help people. After he left that church and went to another, he was discovered to have gay pornography on his computer at work. Apparently when he was the minister of the church I attended he was arrested in another city for propositioning an undercover officer, but thanks to the intervention of a preacher at a mega-church there, he was released into that man's custody and no one ever found out about it. He was fired from the church he was preaching at, and then entered a program that supposedly tries to "cure" someone of homosexuality. This man, who even though my mother didn't go to his church until several years later, was there in 1981 when Mom faced surgery to have a benign tumor taken off her thyroid gland. I'll never forget that simple act of kindness because it calmed my mother's fears considerably. Yet after all this came to light, many people from that church (including, I'm sorry to say, some of my own family) forgot all the good he had done for the church and the community and turned against him simply because he preferred to have sex with another man. Now if he owed an apology to anyone, it was his to his wife for misleading her about his sexuality, but it was not the business of anyone else. I don't want to get into a discussion about whether homosexuality is innate or learned behavior, but I will say that at no point did I ever choose to be heterosexual. I have always found myself attracted to women, so I think the inverse might be possible for another person. Where is the justice in this? Do you really think God cares about someone's sexuality or how much they try to spread his word? So if you get comfort from your faith and feel like it gives you a solid path for you and your family to live, that's wonderful. To paraphrase Voltaire, I may not agree with you, but I'll fight to the death for your right to believe and to practice whatever it is you believe. I, however, get comfort from listening to a sonata from Mozart or from stretching my mind by learning something I didn't know before or from the simple act of being kind to those here with me. I don't need a book that I believe to be full of myths and contradictions to tell me how to live. I'm certainly not perfect and even though I've never intentionally set out to deceive anyone, I know I've done things that are wrong. In the end, however, the only person I have to account to is my fellow man. Best Rob
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 02:04 am |
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17th Post |
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ijontichy Pathfinder 
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One of the more famous American agnostics (or atheists, depending on your precise definition of that term) was Robert G. Ingersoll, who fought on the Union side in the Civil War. He helped raised three regiments of volunteers, and commanded the Eleventh Illinois Cavalry Volunteers. He fought at Shiloh and Corinth, but was captured by General Nathan B. Forrest's men near Lexington on a cold December day in 1862. After the war he served as Illinois Attorney General. You can read his works online.
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